Tochen - Revision history

Gsilver2: /* Utensils Designed for Grinding */

2024-07-31T02:23:18Z

Utensils Designed for Grinding

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:23, 31 July 2024
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	==Utensils Designed for Grinding==		==Utensils Designed for Grinding==

	#Any tool which is designated for crushing or the like, such as a mortar and pestle, or a knife used only for dicing, may not be used in any manner on shabbat, even ~~to chop into very big pieces~~.<ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:2, Sh”t Rivash 184</ref>		#Any tool which is designated for crushing or the like, such as a mortar and pestle, or a knife used only for dicing, may not be used in any manner on shabbat, even for immediate use.<ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:2, Sh”t Rivash 184</ref>
			##There is a debate whether this is merely a rabbinic prohibition of uvdin d'chol, or a biblical one of tochen.<ref>See Teshuvat Harivash siman 184, who presents both of these options. Shulchan Aruch 321:10 states that one may not grind up cheese with a special cheese grinder, even though cheese doesn't grow in the ground and thus isn't subject to tochen. Clearly, then, this is prohibited rabbinically because of uvdin d'chol, as Mishna Brurah 321:36 explains. However, the Mishna Brurah 321:45 is concerned that when tochen would be relevant (like on vegetables), then cutting them with a designated utensil might constitute an isur deorayta. This is analogous to the melacha of borer (lit: sorting), in which it is permitted to do borer by hand, but prohibited biblically if the kli is designated for borer. The Biur Halacha (321:12 s.v. midi) elaborates on this idea as well.</ref>
	#List of Forbidden utensils:		#List of Forbidden utensils:
	##One should not use an onion slicer (a machine which is made of a set of knifes that surrounds the onion and dices it).<ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:3 [I'm not entirely clear about what an onion slicer is.] </ref>		##One should not use an onion slicer (a machine which is made of a set of knifes that surrounds the onion and dices it).<ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:3 [I'm not entirely clear about what an onion slicer is.] </ref>

Gsilver2: /* Utensils Designed for Grinding */

2024-07-31T02:12:39Z

Utensils Designed for Grinding

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:12, 31 July 2024
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	=== Cooked Fruits and Vegetables ===		=== Cooked Fruits and Vegetables ===
	#Fruits or vegetables which were cooked to the point that it is very easy to mash may be crushed on [[Shabbat]]. It can be mashed on Shabbat even with the prongs of a fork, but not a strainer.<ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:9</ref> Some say that it isn't permitted to mash unless its shape partially was crushed or fell apart because of the cooking.<ref>Shemirat Shabbat Kehilchata (English Version p. 73) clearly translates that vegetables cooked before Shabbat need to be already crushed in that they have changed their shape or fallen apart. This is certainly the ruling of Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (ch. 6 fnt. 22). However, Shemirat Shabbat Kehilchata 6:9 implies that essentially if it is very soft then it is permissible to mash on Shabbat even if it didn't lose its shape. See also 6:10. Orchot Shabbat 5:9 similarly sounds like it is permitted with the same conditions and doesn't require that the shape change or fall apart. The Dor Hamelaktim v. 5 p. 2923 cites the Nishmat Shabbat 321:317:4 who is lenient and the Hilchot Shabbat BShabbat (ch. 11 fnt. 41) who is strict.</ref>		#Fruits or vegetables which were cooked to the point that it is very easy to mash may be crushed on [[Shabbat]]. It can be mashed on Shabbat even with the prongs of a fork, but not a strainer.<ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:9</ref> Some say that it isn't permitted to mash unless its shape partially was crushed or fell apart because of the cooking.<ref>Shemirat Shabbat Kehilchata (English Version p. 73) clearly translates that vegetables cooked before Shabbat need to be already crushed in that they have changed their shape or fallen apart. This is certainly the ruling of Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (ch. 6 fnt. 22). However, Shemirat Shabbat Kehilchata 6:9 implies that essentially if it is very soft then it is permissible to mash on Shabbat even if it didn't lose its shape. See also 6:10. Orchot Shabbat 5:9 similarly sounds like it is permitted with the same conditions and doesn't require that the shape change or fall apart. The Dor Hamelaktim v. 5 p. 2923 cites the Nishmat Shabbat 321:317:4 who is lenient and the Hilchot Shabbat BShabbat (ch. 11 fnt. 41) who is strict.</ref>

			=== Changing the Utensil (שינוי גמור) ===

			# If one completely changes the utensil to perform tochen (instead of using the typical utensil), then it is permitted.<ref>The gemara shabbat 141a cites Rava as holding that if one uses the back of a knife to crush pepper, it is permitted because one is using a shinuy. This is quite surprising, since if crushing it up normally would constitute an isur deorayta, why should it be permitted just because one does it with a shinuy? Typically speaking, doing melacha k'la'achar yad (i.e. in the abnormal way) is still rabbinically prohibited, so why should this be different? The Beit Yosef siman 321 cites from the Shibolei Haleket siman 92 as explaining that here it is a shinuy gamur (lit: complete change), and therefore it has the ability to permit even a biblical prohibition. Changing from a stone mortar and pestle to a wooden one is the first shinuy, and changing to the back of a knife is a second shinuy. The idea is presumably that since this is so different from the typical way the melacha is done, chazal weren't concerned that if someone did it this way they would come to violate the biblical prohibition, and so chazal weren't gozer. </ref>
			## For example, pepper is usually ground in a mortar and pestle, so it is permitted to grind it using the back of a knife (instead of a pestle) on a plate or on the table (instead of a mortar).<ref>Shulchan Aruch 321:7 and Mishna Brurah 321:25.</ref>
			## Similarly, salt may be crushed up with the back of a knife, on a plate or the table.<ref>Shulchan Aruch 321:8</ref>
			# Salt granules which solidified because of a moisture may be crushed on [[Shabbat]]. However, one may not crush salt crystals (looking like blocks) or any other spice which has never yet been crushed, unless one does two Shinui's (changes) by using the handle of the knife or fork on a plate or the table.<ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:11 </ref>

	==Grinding for a Small Child==		==Grinding for a Small Child==
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	==Utensils Designed for Grinding==		==Utensils Designed for Grinding==

	#Any tool which is designated for crushing or the like such as a mortar or a knife used only for dicing may not be used in any manner even ~~if it doesn't involve any prohibition of Tochen~~. <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:2, Sh”t Rivash 184</ref>		#Any tool which is designated for crushing or the like, such as a mortar and pestle, or a knife used only for dicing, may not be used in any manner on shabbat, even to chop into very big pieces.<ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:2, Sh”t Rivash 184</ref>
	#One should not use an onion slicer (a machine which is made of a set of knifes that surrounds the onion and dices it). <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:3 [I'm not entirely clear about what an onion slicer is.] </ref>		#List of Forbidden utensils:
	#A vegetable chopper (with blades fitted with springs on an axis) is forbidden since it chops vegetables thinly. <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:3 </ref>		##One should not use an onion slicer (a machine which is made of a set of knifes that surrounds the onion and dices it).<ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:3 [I'm not entirely clear about what an onion slicer is.] </ref>
	#An egg slicer (with equally spaced wires that slice the egg when pressed) is permitted. <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:3 </ref>		##A vegetable chopper (with blades fitted with springs on an axis) is forbidden since it chops vegetables thinly.<ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:3 </ref>
	#A special cheese knife isn’t a utensil designated to be used for chopping finely. <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:11. See Shemiras Shabbos Kehilchasa (6 no. 9) citing R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach where he discusses that with a cheese grater there is an issur of uvdin d’chol even if one will eat the grated cheese immediately based on the Rivash 184. However, one can use a knife and even perhaps a special chopping knife if one will eat the food subsequently in the meal since cutting is not exactly like regular tochein, which is closer to grating or mashing. </ref>		##It’s forbidden to grind coffee beans it a grinder meant for it.<ref>Yalkut Yosef ([[Shabbat]], vol 3, pg 377) </ref>
	#One may cut bread in a machine (manual, non-electric) which cuts slices of bread. <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:11 (note) </ref>		##A cucumber or tomato slicer may not be used on Shabbat.<ref>Dor Hamelaktim v. 5 p. 2891 quotes Rav Elyashiv (Zachor Vshamor ch. 1 fnt. 30) that a tomato slicer is a problem of tochen and Dor Hamelaktim compares it to a cucumber slicer.</ref>
	#~~It’s forbidden to grind coffee beans it a grinder meant for it. <ref>Yalkut Yosef ([[Shabbat]], vol 3, pg 377) </ref>~~		##Potatoes or vegetables which were cooked may not be put through a strainer in order to puree it (as the strainer is designated for that purpose). However, one is permitted to crush it with a fork (even the prongs), as long as it was cooked to the point that it's easy to crush.<ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:10 </ref>
	#It’s permissible to cut vegetables on a cutting board even if it makes lines in the board. <ref>Yalkut Yosef ([[Shabbat]], vol 3, pg 389) </ref>		##One shouldn’t use a strainer to puree or cream a cooked fruit or vegetable, since the strainer has a designated purpose of being used to mash.<ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:10 </ref>
	#It’s permissible to use a peeler to peel vegetables on [[Shabbat]].<ref>Yalkut Yosef ([[Shabbat]], vol 3, pg 391) ~~</ref>~~		#List of Permitted utensils:
	#A cucumber or tomato slicer may not be used on Shabbat.<ref>Dor Hamelaktim v. 5 p. 2891 quotes Rav Elyashiv (Zachor Vshamor ch. 1 fnt. 30) that a tomato slicer is a problem of tochen and Dor Hamelaktim compares it to a cucumber slicer.</ref>		##An egg slicer (with equally spaced wires that slice the egg when pressed) is permitted.<ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:3 </ref>
	#Potatoes or vegetables which were cooked may not be put through a strainer in order to puree it (as the strainer is designated for that purpose) but one is permitted to crush it with a fork (even the prongs) as long as it was cooked to the point that it's easy to crush. <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:10 </ref>		##A special cheese knife isn’t a utensil designated to be used for chopping finely.<ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:11. See Shemiras Shabbos Kehilchasa (6 no. 9) citing R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach where he discusses that with a cheese grater there is an issur of uvdin d’chol even if one will eat the grated cheese immediately based on the Rivash 184. However, one can use a knife and even perhaps a special chopping knife if one will eat the food subsequently in the meal since cutting is not exactly like regular tochein, which is closer to grating or mashing. </ref>
	~~#One shouldn’t use a strainer to puree or cream a cooked fruit or vegetable since the strainer has a designated purpose of being used to mash.<ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:10 </ref>~~		##One may cut bread in a machine (manual, non-electric) which cuts slices of bread.<ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:11 (note) </ref>
	#Salt granules which solidified because of a moisture may be crushed on [[Shabbat]]. However, one may not crush salt crystals (looking like blocks) or any other spice which has never yet been crushed, unless one does two Shinui's (changes) by using the handle of the knife or fork on a plate or the table.<ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:11 </ref>		##It’s permissible to cut vegetables on a cutting board, even if it makes lines in the board.<ref>Yalkut Yosef ([[Shabbat]], vol 3, pg 389) </ref>
			##It’s permissible to use a peeler to peel vegetables on [[Shabbat]].<ref>Yalkut Yosef ([[Shabbat]], vol 3, pg 391) </ref>

	==Related Pages==		==Related Pages==

Gsilver2: /* For Immediate Consumption */

2024-07-31T01:43:30Z

For Immediate Consumption

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:43, 31 July 2024
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	##If it's already so soft that when one simply pulls a piece of the fruit, that piece separates from the rest of the fruit, then it is permitted to mash.<ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:7 </ref>		##If it's already so soft that when one simply pulls a piece of the fruit, that piece separates from the rest of the fruit, then it is permitted to mash.<ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:7 </ref>

	==~~For Immediate Consumption~~==		==Various Leniencies==

			=== For Immediate Consumption (לאלתר) ===
	#Since there are some who hold that it is permitted to cut up raw vegetables or fruit for "immediate" consumption, and there are others who forbid, many poskim write that one should only cut up the vegetables or fruit with a knife into somewhat large pieces for "immediate" consumption.<ref>*The Rashba (Responsa 4:75) writes that it is permitted to do Tochen immediately before consumption just like it is permitted to do [[Borer]] immediately before consumption. The opinion of the Rashba is codified as halacha in the Rama 321:12. The Magen Avraham 321:15, however, quotes the Shiltei Giborim who questions this leniency. Similarly, the Chazon Ish OC 57 seems to prohibit chopping into small pieces even for immediate use in opposition to the Rashba.		#Since there are some who hold that it is permitted to cut up raw vegetables or fruit for "immediate" consumption, and there are others who forbid, many poskim write that one should only cut up the vegetables or fruit with a knife into somewhat large pieces for "immediate" consumption.<ref>*The Rashba (Responsa 4:75) writes that it is permitted to do Tochen immediately before consumption just like it is permitted to do [[Borer]] immediately before consumption. The opinion of the Rashba is codified as halacha in the Rama 321:12. The Magen Avraham 321:15, however, quotes the Shiltei Giborim who questions this leniency. Similarly, the Chazon Ish OC 57 seems to prohibit chopping into small pieces even for immediate use in opposition to the Rashba.
	*In discussing the Rashba, the Beit Yosef 321 writes that in order to satisfy all opinions one should cut the item into somewhat big pieces and then eat it immediately. The Chaye Adam (Klal 17:2) rules that for immediate consumption one may cut vegetables into somewhat large pieces in accordance with the Beit Yosef. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Iggerot Moshe OC 4:74, Tochen 2) writes that the view of the Chazon Ish 57 that prohibits chopping into small pieces even for immediate use is a lone view and against the common practice. Chacham Ben-Zion Abba Shaul (Ohr Litzion 1:28) is also lenient. The Mishna Brurah 321:45 first writes that since some Rishonim disagree with the Rashba one should follow the compromise of the Beit Yosef to cut it up into somewhat large pieces. Nonetheless, he concludes, that one who cuts it up into very small pieces for immediate consumption has what to rely on. Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:6 agrees.</ref>		*In discussing the Rashba, the Beit Yosef 321 writes that in order to satisfy all opinions one should cut the item into somewhat big pieces and then eat it immediately. The Chaye Adam (Klal 17:2) rules that for immediate consumption one may cut vegetables into somewhat large pieces in accordance with the Beit Yosef. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Iggerot Moshe OC 4:74, Tochen 2) writes that the view of the Chazon Ish 57 that prohibits chopping into small pieces even for immediate use is a lone view and against the common practice. Chacham Ben-Zion Abba Shaul (Ohr Litzion 1:28) is also lenient. The Mishna Brurah 321:45 first writes that since some Rishonim disagree with the Rashba one should follow the compromise of the Beit Yosef to cut it up into somewhat large pieces. Nonetheless, he concludes, that one who cuts it up into very small pieces for immediate consumption has what to rely on. Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:6 agrees.</ref>
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	##The above leniency applies whether one is preparing for one's own immediate consumption or another person's.<ref>Bet Yosef 321 based on the Tosfot ([[Shabbat]] 74a s.v. [[Borer]] UMayni'ach) writes that it is permitted to do Tochen for another person's immediate consumption just like it is permitted to do Tochen for one's own immediate consumption. Mishna Brurah 321:43 agrees.</ref>		##The above leniency applies whether one is preparing for one's own immediate consumption or another person's.<ref>Bet Yosef 321 based on the Tosfot ([[Shabbat]] 74a s.v. [[Borer]] UMayni'ach) writes that it is permitted to do Tochen for another person's immediate consumption just like it is permitted to do Tochen for one's own immediate consumption. Mishna Brurah 321:43 agrees.</ref>
	##If one made a salad for one meal and there was leftovers, one is allowed to eat it at another meal.<ref>Yalkut Yosef ([[Shabbat]], vol 3, pg 389) </ref>		##If one made a salad for one meal and there was leftovers, one is allowed to eat it at another meal.<ref>Yalkut Yosef ([[Shabbat]], vol 3, pg 389) </ref>

	~~==Various Leniencies==~~

	=== Pre-crushed Food (אין טוחן אחר טוחן) ===		=== Pre-crushed Food (אין טוחן אחר טוחן) ===
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	#If someone made farina or rice porridge before Shabbat and now on Shabbat it is dry, one may pour hot water even from a ''Kli Rishon'' onto the farina or rice porridge to dilute it and mix it up. One may even crush the clumps with a spoon.<ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:13 </ref>		#If someone made farina or rice porridge before Shabbat and now on Shabbat it is dry, one may pour hot water even from a ''Kli Rishon'' onto the farina or rice porridge to dilute it and mix it up. One may even crush the clumps with a spoon.<ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:13 </ref>

	=== Foods not From the Ground ===		=== Foods not From the Ground (אינו גידולי קרקע) ===
	#Even though there is an issue of tochen on non-food items as well as food items, foods that do not grow from the ground such as meat, eggs, and cheese are not subject to the prohibition of tochen.<ref>Gemara Shabbos 74b writes that one who grinds firewood into small pieces is chayav for tochen. Rambam Shabbos 7:5 includes grinding metal as a tolda of tochen. The Minchat Chinuch (Musach Hashabbos Tochen 4) concludes based on the Rambam’s example that tochen applies to items which are not gidulei karka, and he adds that this is also the view of Rashi (gemara 74b s.v. “Sheva”), who writes that there is a prohibition of tochen for clods of Earth. However, the Pri Megadim (Mishbetzot Zahav 321:10) writes that both dirt and metal may be considered gidulei karka. Shulchan Aruch O.C. 321:9, based on Terumat Hadeshen 56, writes that one may cut cooked meat into very small pieces. Mishna Brurah 321:31 explains that this is because it isn’t gidulei karka and therefore the prohibition doesn’t apply. Shemirat Shabbos KeHilchata 6:14 and Yalkut Yosef (Shabbos, vol 3, pg 391) extend this to eggs and cheese. Shoneh Halachot 321:24 quotes the Chazon Ish that one may not be lenient with things that do not grow in the ground unless the intention is to eat them immediately.</ref>		#Even though there is an issue of tochen on non-food items as well as food items, foods that do not grow from the ground such as meat, eggs, and cheese are not subject to the prohibition of tochen.<ref>Gemara Shabbos 74b writes that one who grinds firewood into small pieces is chayav for tochen. Rambam Shabbos 7:5 includes grinding metal as a tolda of tochen. The Minchat Chinuch (Musach Hashabbos Tochen 4) concludes based on the Rambam’s example that tochen applies to items which are not gidulei karka, and he adds that this is also the view of Rashi (gemara 74b s.v. “Sheva”), who writes that there is a prohibition of tochen for clods of Earth. However, the Pri Megadim (Mishbetzot Zahav 321:10) writes that both dirt and metal may be considered gidulei karka. Shulchan Aruch O.C. 321:9, based on Terumat Hadeshen 56, writes that one may cut cooked meat into very small pieces. Mishna Brurah 321:31 explains that this is because it isn’t gidulei karka and therefore the prohibition doesn’t apply. Shemirat Shabbos KeHilchata 6:14 and Yalkut Yosef (Shabbos, vol 3, pg 391) extend this to eggs and cheese. Shoneh Halachot 321:24 quotes the Chazon Ish that one may not be lenient with things that do not grow in the ground unless the intention is to eat them immediately.</ref>
	#One may not grind up raw meat on Shabbat, since otherwise it isn't edible.<ref>Rama 321:9, Kaf Hachaim 324:29</ref> If it is for immediate consumption it is permitted.<ref>Mishna Brurah 321:33, Tiferet 321:47 citing Chazon Ovadia Shabbat v. 4 p. 270</ref>		#One may not grind up raw meat on Shabbat, since otherwise it isn't edible.<ref>Rama 321:9, Kaf Hachaim 324:29</ref> If it is for immediate consumption it is permitted.<ref>Mishna Brurah 321:33, Tiferet 321:47 citing Chazon Ovadia Shabbat v. 4 p. 270</ref>

Gsilver2: /* Chopping Vegetables for a Salad */

2024-07-31T01:42:20Z

Chopping Vegetables for a Salad

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Gsilver2: /* For Immediate Consumption */

2024-07-30T02:02:30Z

For Immediate Consumption

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:02, 30 July 2024
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	*L'halacha, the Shulchan Aruch 321:12 paskens stringently that one who chops up vegetables into pieces that are "דק דק" (lit: very small) has violated the biblical melacha of tochen. As we have seen, many rishonim would disagree with this statement, but of course many would agree, and so the Shulchan Aruch follows the strict approach. However, there is a discussion whether the Rama agrees to this or not. The Rama writes that it is similarly prohibited to chop up figs or carrobs for old people. Why does he specify old people? The Magen Avraham 321:14 suggests that perhaps the Rama understands that it is only prohibited to chop it for old people since they are unable to eat the vegetables otherwise. This type of chopping is significant and thus deemed melacha. However, if someone is able to eat the vegetables even before the chopping, then chopping would be permitted. This is a major leniency. However, it is rejected by the Mishna Brurah (Biur Halacha 321:12 s.v. lifnei), who suggests that really the Rama just mentioned old people because that was the common case, but it was not meant to exclude other people. Practically then, the halacha is that one may not chop vegetables into very small pieces even for one who is able to eat them otherwise. </ref>		*L'halacha, the Shulchan Aruch 321:12 paskens stringently that one who chops up vegetables into pieces that are "דק דק" (lit: very small) has violated the biblical melacha of tochen. As we have seen, many rishonim would disagree with this statement, but of course many would agree, and so the Shulchan Aruch follows the strict approach. However, there is a discussion whether the Rama agrees to this or not. The Rama writes that it is similarly prohibited to chop up figs or carrobs for old people. Why does he specify old people? The Magen Avraham 321:14 suggests that perhaps the Rama understands that it is only prohibited to chop it for old people since they are unable to eat the vegetables otherwise. This type of chopping is significant and thus deemed melacha. However, if someone is able to eat the vegetables even before the chopping, then chopping would be permitted. This is a major leniency. However, it is rejected by the Mishna Brurah (Biur Halacha 321:12 s.v. lifnei), who suggests that really the Rama just mentioned old people because that was the common case, but it was not meant to exclude other people. Practically then, the halacha is that one may not chop vegetables into very small pieces even for one who is able to eat them otherwise. </ref>
			## Some say it is permitted to ask a non-Jew to cut up vegetables into very small pieces even though it is not for immediate consumption (e.g. Friday night after the meal for the purpose of lunch the next day).<ref>[https://www.torahanytime.com/#/lectures?v=128698 Rav Yitzchak Yosef (Motzei Shabbat Lech Lecha 5781, min 41-52)] explains that it is permitted to ask a non-Jew to chop up vegetables for a salad for lunch far in advance since there are some opinions in the rishonim who would permit it since the vegetables were edible raw. </ref>
	# It is permitted to cut vegetables into pieces that are somewhat large, immediately before the meal.<ref>Shemirat Shabbat Kehilchata 6:6. This is based on the leniency of the Rashbah (discussed below) that one may perform tochen right before consumption. The Beit Yosef isn't willing to rely upon the Rashbah fully, but he suggests that if one chops up the vegetables a little bit bigger than normal (such that it might not be "דק דק"), then one can rely upon the Rashbah to do so right before the meal. The Mishna Brurah 321:45 paskens this way as well.</ref>		# It is permitted to cut vegetables into pieces that are somewhat large, immediately before the meal.<ref>Shemirat Shabbat Kehilchata 6:6. This is based on the leniency of the Rashbah (discussed below) that one may perform tochen right before consumption. The Beit Yosef isn't willing to rely upon the Rashbah fully, but he suggests that if one chops up the vegetables a little bit bigger than normal (such that it might not be "דק דק"), then one can rely upon the Rashbah to do so right before the meal. The Mishna Brurah 321:45 paskens this way as well.</ref>
	## What is considered somewhat large? As long as the pieces are cut larger than typically cut during the week.<ref>39 Melachos v. 2 p. 460, Dor Hamelaktim v. 5 p. 2914 citing Chazon Ish 57 s.v. vheneh, Brit Olam (Tochen 20), Az Nidbaru 11:8, 12:22, Shabbos Kitchen ch. 9 fnt. 19, Rivevot Efraim 5:260:3, Hilchos Shabbos (Rav Eider fnt. 91)</ref>		## What is considered somewhat large? As long as the pieces are cut larger than typically cut during the week.<ref>39 Melachos v. 2 p. 460, Dor Hamelaktim v. 5 p. 2914 citing Chazon Ish 57 s.v. vheneh, Brit Olam (Tochen 20), Az Nidbaru 11:8, 12:22, Shabbos Kitchen ch. 9 fnt. 19, Rivevot Efraim 5:260:3, Hilchos Shabbos (Rav Eider fnt. 91)</ref>
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	==For Immediate Consumption==		==For Immediate Consumption==

	#Since there are some who hold that it is permitted to cut up raw vegetables or fruit for "immediate" consumption, and there are others who forbid, many poskim write that one should only cut up the vegetables or fruit with a knife into somewhat large pieces for "immediate" consumption. <ref>*The Rashba (Responsa 4:75) writes that it is permitted to do Tochen immediately before consumption just like it is permitted to do [[Borer]] immediately before consumption. The opinion of the Rashba is codified as halacha in the Rama 321:12. The Magen Avraham 321:15, however, quotes the Shiltei Giborim who questions this leniency. Similarly, the Chazon Ish OC 57 seems to prohibit chopping into small pieces even for immediate use in opposition to the Rashba.		#Since there are some who hold that it is permitted to cut up raw vegetables or fruit for "immediate" consumption, and there are others who forbid, many poskim write that one should only cut up the vegetables or fruit with a knife into somewhat large pieces for "immediate" consumption.<ref>*The Rashba (Responsa 4:75) writes that it is permitted to do Tochen immediately before consumption just like it is permitted to do [[Borer]] immediately before consumption. The opinion of the Rashba is codified as halacha in the Rama 321:12. The Magen Avraham 321:15, however, quotes the Shiltei Giborim who questions this leniency. Similarly, the Chazon Ish OC 57 seems to prohibit chopping into small pieces even for immediate use in opposition to the Rashba.
	*In discussing the Rashba, the Beit Yosef 321 writes that in order to satisfy all opinions one should cut the item into somewhat big pieces and then eat it immediately. The Chaye Adam (Klal 17:2) rules that for immediate consumption one may cut vegetables into somewhat large pieces in accordance with the Beit Yosef. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Iggerot Moshe OC 4:74, Tochen 2) writes that the view of the Chazon Ish 57 that prohibits chopping into small pieces even for immediate use is a lone view and against the common practice. Chacham Ben-Zion Abba Shaul (Ohr Litzion 1:28) is also lenient. The Mishna Brurah 321:45 first writes that since some Rishonim disagree with the Rashba one should follow the compromise of the Beit Yosef to cut it up into somewhat large pieces. Nonetheless, he concludes, that one who cuts it up into very small pieces for immediate consumption has what to rely on. Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:6 agrees.		*In discussing the Rashba, the Beit Yosef 321 writes that in order to satisfy all opinions one should cut the item into somewhat big pieces and then eat it immediately. The Chaye Adam (Klal 17:2) rules that for immediate consumption one may cut vegetables into somewhat large pieces in accordance with the Beit Yosef. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Iggerot Moshe OC 4:74, Tochen 2) writes that the view of the Chazon Ish 57 that prohibits chopping into small pieces even for immediate use is a lone view and against the common practice. Chacham Ben-Zion Abba Shaul (Ohr Litzion 1:28) is also lenient. The Mishna Brurah 321:45 first writes that since some Rishonim disagree with the Rashba one should follow the compromise of the Beit Yosef to cut it up into somewhat large pieces. Nonetheless, he concludes, that one who cuts it up into very small pieces for immediate consumption has what to rely on. Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:6 agrees.</ref>
	*It is noteworthy that the Mishna Brurah 321:44 and Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:6 clarify that this is a case where is using a regular knife (and not a dicing utensil).</ref> Sephardim hold that for immediate consumption it is permitted to cut up a vegetable even into small pieces. However, it is praiseworthy to be strict to only cut it into big pieces. <ref>Yalkut Yosef ([[Shabbat]], vol 3, pg 382) </ref> The above leniency is only if one uses a regular knife but not a special ~~grinding~~ utensil. <ref>Mishna Brurah 321:44 and Shemirat Shabbos KeHilchata 6:6 </ref>		##Sephardim hold that for immediate consumption it is permitted to cut up a vegetable even into small pieces. However, it is praiseworthy to be strict to only cut it into big pieces.<ref>Yalkut Yosef ([[Shabbat]], vol 3, pg 382) </ref>
	#~~It is also considered~~ "immediate" ~~if one makes the salad right before beginning the meal in which it will be eaten. <ref>Mishna Brurah 321:45, Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:6, Yalkut Yosef ([[Shabbat]], vol 3, pg 382) </ref>~~		##For a child or someone who can't eat large pieces, there is what to rely upon to cut it up into small pieces, as long as one does so right before the meal.<ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:6 </ref>
	#The above leniency applies whether one is preparing for one's own immediate consumption or another person's immediate consumption.<ref>Bet Yosef 321 based on the Tosfot ([[Shabbat]] 74a s.v. [[Borer]] UMayni'ach) writes that it is permitted to do Tochen for another person's immediate consumption just like it is permitted to do Tochen for one's own immediate consumption. Mishna Brurah 321:43 agrees.</ref>		##The above leniency is only if one uses a regular knife, but not a special dicing utensil.<ref>Mishna Brurah 321:44 and Shemirat Shabbos KeHilchata 6:6 </ref>
	#If one ~~made a~~ salad ~~for one~~ meal ~~and there was left over one is allowed to eat~~ it ~~in another meal~~. <ref>Yalkut Yosef ([[Shabbat]], vol 3, pg ~~389~~) </ref>		#How do we define "immediate consumption"?
	#~~For a child or someone who can't eat large pieces there is what to rely on to cut it up into small pieces as long as one does so right before the meal. <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:6 </ref>~~		##The above leniency applies whether one is preparing for one's own immediate consumption or another person's immediate consumption.<ref>Bet Yosef 321 based on the Tosfot ([[Shabbat]] 74a s.v. [[Borer]] UMayni'ach) writes that it is permitted to do Tochen for another person's immediate consumption just like it is permitted to do Tochen for one's own immediate consumption. Mishna Brurah 321:43 agrees.</ref>
	#~~It's forbidden to crush a banana or avocado unless it's already so soft that when~~ one ~~pulls~~ a ~~part of the fruit, that part separates from the rest of the fruit. <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:7 </ref>~~		##It is also considered "immediate" if one makes the salad right before beginning the meal in which it will be eaten.<ref>Mishna Brurah 321:45, Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:6, Yalkut Yosef ([[Shabbat]], vol 3, pg 382) </ref>
	#There is a debate amongst the Poskim if the prohibition of Tochen applies to fruit or vegetables such as bananas and avocados which when mashed do not separate into individual pieces but rather just change shape and remain one large mass. Therefore, it is better to do so with a shinui.<ref>The Tosefta (Beitza 1:19) says that "Pressed or dried figs cannot be crushed before the elderly." The Chazon Ish (57, “nimtzeinu”) writes that when pressed or dried figs are crushed, they remain one mass, and therefore even in such a case tochen is applicable. In light of this, the Chazon Ish writes that it is forbidden to mash a banana even though it remains one mass, even for ~~immediate eating (lishitaso with above about immediate eating). Therefore, he says~~ one ~~must do so with a shinui. However, Rav Moshe Feinstein (Iggerot Moshe OC 4:74:Tochen 2) rules that they are not subject to the prohibition of Tochen~~ and may be mashed in the regular manner. He says even if we accept that the prohibition applies even for immediate eating, it is only applicable when one takes one body and turns it into smaller components. However, taking a substance and mashing it while it remains one mass isn’t a problem. He nevertheless concludes that if possible, one ~~should do it with a shinui to be machmir for the Chazon Ish. Rabbi Ribiat (“The 39 Melochos” pg. 461) sides with Rav Moshe. Chacham Ovadia Yosef (Yechave Daat 5:27), though he agrees that mashing~~ is ~~included in tochen, permits one~~ to mash a banana with a fork to feed immediately to a child. Rabbi Moshe Halevi (Menuchat Ahava 2: pg. 278), writes that he should preferably do so in an unusual manner, such as by using the handle of the fork. Shemirat Shabbos Kehilchita 6:7-8 forbids mashing a banana or avocado unless one uses a shinui. <br /> </ref>		##If one made a salad for one meal and there was leftovers, one is allowed to eat it at another meal.<ref>Yalkut Yosef ([[Shabbat]], vol 3, pg 389) </ref>
	~~# Some say~~ it ~~is permitted to ask a non-Jew to cut up vegetables Friday night after the~~ meal ~~or Shabbat morning for lunch even though it isn't for immediate consumption~~.<ref>~~[https://www.torahanytime.com/#/lectures?v=128698 Rav Yitzchak~~ Yosef (~~Motzei~~ Shabbat ~~Lech Lecha 5781~~, ~~min 41-52~~)] explains that it is permitted to ask a non-Jew to chop up vegetables for a salad for lunch far in advance since there are some opinions in the rishonim who would permit it since the vegetables were edible raw. </ref>

	==Cooked Fruits and Vegetables==		==Cooked Fruits and Vegetables==
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	#One can be lenient to cut a food very small for a small child to eat so long as it’s immediately prior to the meal. <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:6, Iggeros Moshe OC 4:74, Tochen 2. </ref>		#One can be lenient to cut a food very small for a small child to eat so long as it’s immediately prior to the meal. <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:6, Iggeros Moshe OC 4:74, Tochen 2. </ref>
	#It’s forbidden to mash or squash a fruit or vegetable such as a banana or tomato. If one has to mash a banana for a small child one should do it with a variation such as using the handle of a fork or a spoon. <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:8 </ref>		#It’s forbidden to mash or squash a fruit or vegetable such as a banana or tomato. If one has to mash a banana for a small child one should do it with a variation such as using the handle of a fork or a spoon. <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:8 </ref>
			#It's forbidden to crush a banana or avocado unless it's already so soft that when one pulls a part of the fruit, that part separates from the rest of the fruit. <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:7 </ref>
			#There is a debate amongst the poskim if the prohibition of Tochen applies to fruit or vegetables such as bananas and avocados which when mashed do not separate into individual pieces but rather just change shape and remain one large mass. Therefore, it is better to do so with a shinui.<ref>The Tosefta (Beitza 1:19) says that "Pressed or dried figs cannot be crushed before the elderly." The Chazon Ish (57, “nimtzeinu”) writes that when pressed or dried figs are crushed, they remain one mass, and therefore even in such a case tochen is applicable. In light of this, the Chazon Ish writes that it is forbidden to mash a banana even though it remains one mass, even for immediate eating (lishitaso with above about immediate eating). Therefore, he says one must do so with a shinui. However, Rav Moshe Feinstein (Iggerot Moshe OC 4:74:Tochen 2) rules that they are not subject to the prohibition of Tochen and may be mashed in the regular manner. He says even if we accept that the prohibition applies even for immediate eating, it is only applicable when one takes one body and turns it into smaller components. However, taking a substance and mashing it while it remains one mass isn’t a problem. He nevertheless concludes that if possible, one should do it with a shinui to be machmir for the Chazon Ish. Rabbi Ribiat (“The 39 Melochos” pg. 461) sides with Rav Moshe. Chacham Ovadia Yosef (Yechave Daat 5:27), though he agrees that mashing is included in tochen, permits one to mash a banana with a fork to feed immediately to a child. Rabbi Moshe Halevi (Menuchat Ahava 2: pg. 278), writes that he should preferably do so in an unusual manner, such as by using the handle of the fork. Shemirat Shabbos Kehilchita 6:7-8 forbids mashing a banana or avocado unless one uses a shinui. <br /> </ref>

	==Slicing==		==Slicing==

Gsilver2: /* Chopping Vegetables for a Salad */

2024-07-30T01:24:12Z

Chopping Vegetables for a Salad

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:24, 30 July 2024
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	*L'halacha, the Shulchan Aruch 321:12 paskens stringently that one who chops up vegetables into pieces that are "דק דק" (lit: very small) has violated the biblical melacha of tochen. As we have seen, many rishonim would disagree with this statement, but of course many would agree, and so the Shulchan Aruch follows the strict approach. However, there is a discussion whether the Rama agrees to this or not. The Rama writes that it is similarly prohibited to chop up figs or carrobs for old people. Why does he specify old people? The Magen Avraham 321:14 suggests that perhaps the Rama understands that it is only prohibited to chop it for old people since they are unable to eat the vegetables otherwise. This type of chopping is significant and thus deemed melacha. However, if someone is able to eat the vegetables even before the chopping, then chopping would be permitted. This is a major leniency. However, it is rejected by the Mishna Brurah (Biur Halacha 321:12 s.v. lifnei), who suggests that really the Rama just mentioned old people because that was the common case, but it was not meant to exclude other people. Practically then, the halacha is that one may not chop vegetables into very small pieces even for one who is able to eat them otherwise. </ref>		*L'halacha, the Shulchan Aruch 321:12 paskens stringently that one who chops up vegetables into pieces that are "דק דק" (lit: very small) has violated the biblical melacha of tochen. As we have seen, many rishonim would disagree with this statement, but of course many would agree, and so the Shulchan Aruch follows the strict approach. However, there is a discussion whether the Rama agrees to this or not. The Rama writes that it is similarly prohibited to chop up figs or carrobs for old people. Why does he specify old people? The Magen Avraham 321:14 suggests that perhaps the Rama understands that it is only prohibited to chop it for old people since they are unable to eat the vegetables otherwise. This type of chopping is significant and thus deemed melacha. However, if someone is able to eat the vegetables even before the chopping, then chopping would be permitted. This is a major leniency. However, it is rejected by the Mishna Brurah (Biur Halacha 321:12 s.v. lifnei), who suggests that really the Rama just mentioned old people because that was the common case, but it was not meant to exclude other people. Practically then, the halacha is that one may not chop vegetables into very small pieces even for one who is able to eat them otherwise. </ref>
	# It is permitted to cut vegetables into pieces that are somewhat large, immediately before the meal.<ref>Shemirat Shabbat Kehilchata 6:6</ref>		# It is permitted to cut vegetables into pieces that are somewhat large, immediately before the meal.<ref>Shemirat Shabbat Kehilchata 6:6. This is based on the leniency of the Rashbah (discussed below) that one may perform tochen right before consumption. The Beit Yosef isn't willing to rely upon the Rashbah fully, but he suggests that if one chops up the vegetables a little bit bigger than normal (such that it might not be "דק דק"), then one can rely upon the Rashbah to do so right before the meal. The Mishna Brurah 321:45 paskens this way as well.</ref>
	## What is considered somewhat large? As long as the pieces are cut larger than typically cut during the week.<ref>39 Melachos v. 2 p. 460, Dor Hamelaktim v. 5 p. 2914 citing Chazon Ish 57 s.v. vheneh, Brit Olam (Tochen 20), Az Nidbaru 11:8, 12:22, Shabbos Kitchen ch. 9 fnt. 19, Rivevot Efraim 5:260:3, Hilchos Shabbos (Rav Eider fnt. 91)</ref>		## What is considered somewhat large? As long as the pieces are cut larger than typically cut during the week.<ref>39 Melachos v. 2 p. 460, Dor Hamelaktim v. 5 p. 2914 citing Chazon Ish 57 s.v. vheneh, Brit Olam (Tochen 20), Az Nidbaru 11:8, 12:22, Shabbos Kitchen ch. 9 fnt. 19, Rivevot Efraim 5:260:3, Hilchos Shabbos (Rav Eider fnt. 91)</ref>
	# It is permitted to cut vegetables into large pieces even far in advance of a meal.<ref>Dor Hamelaktim v. 5 p. 2913</ref>		# It is permitted to cut vegetables into large pieces, even far in advance of a meal.<ref>Dor Hamelaktim v. 5 p. 2913</ref>
	## What is considered large pieces?		## What is considered large pieces?
	### Some say that pieces that are larger than one usually cuts them is considered large. Inversely, some say that anything a cook or housewife would consider 'very small' is considered small.		### Some say that pieces that are larger than one usually cuts them is considered large. Inversely, some say that anything a cook or housewife would consider 'very small' is considered small.
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	*Lastly, they cite Zachor Vshamor (Tochen 2) who says that if the pieces are larger than .5 cm^3 it is certainly not considered very small.</ref>		*Lastly, they cite Zachor Vshamor (Tochen 2) who says that if the pieces are larger than .5 cm^3 it is certainly not considered very small.</ref>

	~~==Utensils designed for grinding==~~		==For Immediate Consumption==

	#Any tool which is designated for crushing or the like such as a mortar or a knife used only for dicing may not be used in any manner even if it doesn't involve any prohibition of Tochen. <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:2, Sh”t Rivash 184</ref>
	#One should not use an onion slicer (a machine which is made of a set of knifes that surrounds the onion and dices it). <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:3 [I'm not entirely clear about what an onion slicer is.] </ref>
	~~#A vegetable chopper (with blades fitted with springs on an axis) is forbidden since it chops vegetables thinly. <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:3 </ref>~~
	~~#An egg slicer (with equally spaced wires that slice the egg when pressed) is permitted. <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:3 </ref>~~
	#A special cheese knife isn’t a utensil designated to be used for chopping finely. <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:11. See Shemiras Shabbos Kehilchasa (6 no. 9) citing R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach where he discusses that with a cheese grater there is an issur of uvdin d’chol even if one will eat the grated cheese immediately based on the Rivash 184. However, one can use a knife and even perhaps a special chopping knife if one will eat the food subsequently in the meal since cutting is not exactly like regular tochein, which is closer to grating or mashing. </ref>
	~~#One may cut bread in a machine (manual, non-electric) which cuts slices of bread. <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:11 (note) </ref>~~
	~~#It’s forbidden to grind coffee beans it a grinder meant for it. <ref>Yalkut Yosef ([[Shabbat]], vol 3, pg 377) </ref>~~
	~~#It’s permissible to cut vegetables on a cutting board even if it makes lines in the board. <ref>Yalkut Yosef ([[Shabbat]], vol 3, pg 389) </ref>~~
	~~#It’s permissible to use a peeler to peel vegetables on [[Shabbat]].<ref>Yalkut Yosef ([[Shabbat]], vol 3, pg 391) </ref>~~
	#A cucumber or tomato slicer may not be used on Shabbat.<ref>Dor Hamelaktim v. 5 p. 2891 quotes Rav Elyashiv (Zachor Vshamor ch. 1 fnt. 30) that a tomato slicer is a problem of tochen and Dor Hamelaktim compares it to a cucumber slicer.</ref>

	==For ~~immediate consumption~~==

	#Since there are some who hold that it is permitted to cut up raw vegetables or fruit for "immediate" consumption, and there are others who forbid, many poskim write that one should only cut up the vegetables or fruit with a knife into somewhat large pieces for "immediate" consumption. <ref>*The Rashba (Responsa 4:75) writes that it is permitted to do Tochen immediately before consumption just like it is permitted to do [[Borer]] immediately before consumption. The opinion of the Rashba is codified as halacha in the Rama 321:12. The Magen Avraham 321:15, however, quotes the Shiltei Giborim who questions this leniency. Similarly, the Chazon Ish OC 57 seems to prohibit chopping into small pieces even for immediate use in opposition to the Rashba.		#Since there are some who hold that it is permitted to cut up raw vegetables or fruit for "immediate" consumption, and there are others who forbid, many poskim write that one should only cut up the vegetables or fruit with a knife into somewhat large pieces for "immediate" consumption. <ref>*The Rashba (Responsa 4:75) writes that it is permitted to do Tochen immediately before consumption just like it is permitted to do [[Borer]] immediately before consumption. The opinion of the Rashba is codified as halacha in the Rama 321:12. The Magen Avraham 321:15, however, quotes the Shiltei Giborim who questions this leniency. Similarly, the Chazon Ish OC 57 seems to prohibit chopping into small pieces even for immediate use in opposition to the Rashba.
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	#If someone made farina or rice porridge before Shabbat and now on Shabbat it is dry, one may pour hot water even from a ''Kli Rishon'' onto the farina or rice porridge to dilute it and mix it up. One may even crush the clumps with a spoon.<ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:13 </ref> To make farina as a thin mixture that pours from scratch on Shabbat one should make a change in how the ingredients are put in. If the farina is usually put in first and the water, on Shabbat one should first put in the water first and then the farina and vice versa.<ref>Divarecha Yair 3:14 writes that farina or cream of wheat is usually made as a thin batter food and so it only needs a shinuy in the order of putting in the ingredients.</ref>		#If someone made farina or rice porridge before Shabbat and now on Shabbat it is dry, one may pour hot water even from a ''Kli Rishon'' onto the farina or rice porridge to dilute it and mix it up. One may even crush the clumps with a spoon.<ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:13 </ref> To make farina as a thin mixture that pours from scratch on Shabbat one should make a change in how the ingredients are put in. If the farina is usually put in first and the water, on Shabbat one should first put in the water first and then the farina and vice versa.<ref>Divarecha Yair 3:14 writes that farina or cream of wheat is usually made as a thin batter food and so it only needs a shinuy in the order of putting in the ingredients.</ref>

	==Foods ~~which don't grow from~~ the ~~ground~~==		==Foods not From the Ground==

	#Even though there is an issue of tochen on non-food items as well as food items, foods that do not grow from the ground such as meat, eggs, and cheese are not subject to the prohibition as long as one plans on eating them that Shabbat.<ref>Gemara Shabbos 74b writes that one who grinds firewood into small pieces is chayav for tochen. Rambam Shabbos 7:5 includes metal as a tolada of tochen. The Minchat Chinuch (Musach Hashabbos Tochen 4) concludes based on the Rambam’s example that tochen applies to items which are not gidulei karka, and he adds that this is also the view of the Rashi (74b “Sheva”), who writes that there is a prohibition of tochen for clods of earth. However, the Pri Megadim (Mishbetzot Zahav 321:10) write that both dirt and metal may be considered gidulei karka. Shulchan Aruch O.C. 321:9 based on Terumat Hadeshen 56 writes that one may cut cooked meat into very small pieces. Mishna Brura 321:31 explains that this is because it isn’t gidulei karka and therefore the prohibition doesn’t apply. Shemirat Shabbos KeHilchata 6:14 and Yalkut Yosef (Shabbos, vol 3, pg 391) extend this to eggs and cheese. Shoneh Halachot 321:24 quotes the Chazon Ish that one may not be lenient with things that do not grow in the ground unless the intention is to eat them immediately.</ref>		#Even though there is an issue of tochen on non-food items as well as food items, foods that do not grow from the ground such as meat, eggs, and cheese are not subject to the prohibition as long as one plans on eating them that Shabbat.<ref>Gemara Shabbos 74b writes that one who grinds firewood into small pieces is chayav for tochen. Rambam Shabbos 7:5 includes metal as a tolada of tochen. The Minchat Chinuch (Musach Hashabbos Tochen 4) concludes based on the Rambam’s example that tochen applies to items which are not gidulei karka, and he adds that this is also the view of the Rashi (74b “Sheva”), who writes that there is a prohibition of tochen for clods of earth. However, the Pri Megadim (Mishbetzot Zahav 321:10) write that both dirt and metal may be considered gidulei karka. Shulchan Aruch O.C. 321:9 based on Terumat Hadeshen 56 writes that one may cut cooked meat into very small pieces. Mishna Brura 321:31 explains that this is because it isn’t gidulei karka and therefore the prohibition doesn’t apply. Shemirat Shabbos KeHilchata 6:14 and Yalkut Yosef (Shabbos, vol 3, pg 391) extend this to eggs and cheese. Shoneh Halachot 321:24 quotes the Chazon Ish that one may not be lenient with things that do not grow in the ground unless the intention is to eat them immediately.</ref>
	#One may not crush or grind up raw meat on Shabbat since otherwise it isn't edible.<ref>Rama 321:9, Kaf Hachaim 324:29</ref> If it is for immediate consumption it is permitted.<ref>Mishna Brurah 321:33, Tiferet 321:47 citing Chazon Ovadia Shabbat v. 4 p. 270</ref>		#One may not crush or grind up raw meat on Shabbat since otherwise it isn't edible.<ref>Rama 321:9, Kaf Hachaim 324:29</ref> If it is for immediate consumption it is permitted.<ref>Mishna Brurah 321:33, Tiferet 321:47 citing Chazon Ovadia Shabbat v. 4 p. 270</ref>

	==Grinding for a ~~small child~~==		==Grinding for a Small Child==

	#One can be lenient to cut a food very small for a small child to eat so long as it’s immediately prior to the meal. <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:6, Iggeros Moshe OC 4:74, Tochen 2. </ref>		#One can be lenient to cut a food very small for a small child to eat so long as it’s immediately prior to the meal. <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:6, Iggeros Moshe OC 4:74, Tochen 2. </ref>
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	#There is a machloket amongst the poskim if the prohibition applies only if the food is being cut very small in all dimensions or if it even applies if one is slicing in one direction such as an egg or tomato.<ref>Rav Moshe Feinstein (Iggerot Moshe OC 4:74:Tochen 3) writes that slicing foods in one direction isn’t considered tochen because otherwise there would be no limit. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Sh”t Minchat Shlomo 91:13) also rules this way. On the other hand, Ketzot HaShulchan Siman 129 Badei HaShulchan 2 quotes that the Tzemach Tzedek was stringent. Additionally, Orchot Shabbos page 217 chapter 5:footnote 12 writes that Rav Elyashiv was stringent as well.<br /> </ref>		#There is a machloket amongst the poskim if the prohibition applies only if the food is being cut very small in all dimensions or if it even applies if one is slicing in one direction such as an egg or tomato.<ref>Rav Moshe Feinstein (Iggerot Moshe OC 4:74:Tochen 3) writes that slicing foods in one direction isn’t considered tochen because otherwise there would be no limit. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Sh”t Minchat Shlomo 91:13) also rules this way. On the other hand, Ketzot HaShulchan Siman 129 Badei HaShulchan 2 quotes that the Tzemach Tzedek was stringent. Additionally, Orchot Shabbos page 217 chapter 5:footnote 12 writes that Rav Elyashiv was stringent as well.<br /> </ref>

			==Utensils Designed for Grinding==

			#Any tool which is designated for crushing or the like such as a mortar or a knife used only for dicing may not be used in any manner even if it doesn't involve any prohibition of Tochen. <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:2, Sh”t Rivash 184</ref>
			#One should not use an onion slicer (a machine which is made of a set of knifes that surrounds the onion and dices it). <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:3 [I'm not entirely clear about what an onion slicer is.] </ref>
			#A vegetable chopper (with blades fitted with springs on an axis) is forbidden since it chops vegetables thinly. <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:3 </ref>
			#An egg slicer (with equally spaced wires that slice the egg when pressed) is permitted. <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:3 </ref>
			#A special cheese knife isn’t a utensil designated to be used for chopping finely. <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:11. See Shemiras Shabbos Kehilchasa (6 no. 9) citing R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach where he discusses that with a cheese grater there is an issur of uvdin d’chol even if one will eat the grated cheese immediately based on the Rivash 184. However, one can use a knife and even perhaps a special chopping knife if one will eat the food subsequently in the meal since cutting is not exactly like regular tochein, which is closer to grating or mashing. </ref>
			#One may cut bread in a machine (manual, non-electric) which cuts slices of bread. <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:11 (note) </ref>
			#It’s forbidden to grind coffee beans it a grinder meant for it. <ref>Yalkut Yosef ([[Shabbat]], vol 3, pg 377) </ref>
			#It’s permissible to cut vegetables on a cutting board even if it makes lines in the board. <ref>Yalkut Yosef ([[Shabbat]], vol 3, pg 389) </ref>
			#It’s permissible to use a peeler to peel vegetables on [[Shabbat]].<ref>Yalkut Yosef ([[Shabbat]], vol 3, pg 391) </ref>
			#A cucumber or tomato slicer may not be used on Shabbat.<ref>Dor Hamelaktim v. 5 p. 2891 quotes Rav Elyashiv (Zachor Vshamor ch. 1 fnt. 30) that a tomato slicer is a problem of tochen and Dor Hamelaktim compares it to a cucumber slicer.</ref>

	==Related Pages==		==Related Pages==

Gsilver2: /* In the Mishkan */

2024-07-30T01:19:32Z

In the Mishkan

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 ==Definition==
-#The melacha is defined as the constructive reduction of a large singular entity into small parts whereby it serves a new purpose.<ref>Rambam Peirush HaMishnayot 7:2 </ref> Examples include chopping wood into small chips for a fire, shaving down a metal rod to form small strips or dicing vegetables to cook them.<ref>Rambam Shabbos 8:15 </ref>
+#The melacha is defined as the constructive reduction of a large singular entity into small parts whereby it serves a new purpose.<ref>Rambam Peirush HaMishnayot 7:2 </ref>
-#There is a biblical violation of [[grinding]] when [[grinding]] wheat, barley, spices, and the like. Similarly, it’s biblically forbidden to saw wood for the sawdust. <ref>Yalkut Yosef ([[Shabbat]], vol 3, pg 377) </ref>
+##Examples include chopping wood into small chips for a fire, shaving down a metal rod to form small strips, and dicing vegetables to cook them.<ref>Rambam hilchot shabbat 8:15 </ref>
-#The prohibition of Tochen ([[grinding]]) includes chopping, grating, crushing, mashing, shredding, or breaking something into small pieces. <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:1 </ref>
+##The prohibition of Tochen ([[grinding]]) includes chopping, grating, crushing, mashing, shredding, or breaking something into small pieces.<ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:1 </ref>
-#Tochen also applies to non-foods. For example it's forbidden to crush a clod of dirt, shave splinters off a piece of wood, sawing wood with intent for the dust. <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:1 in the note, Yalkut Yosef ([[Shabbat]], vol 3, pg 377) </ref>
+#Tochen also applies to non-foods. For example it's forbidden to crush a clod of dirt, shave splinters off a piece of wood, sawing wood with intent for the dust.<ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:1 in the note, Yalkut Yosef ([[Shabbat]], vol 3, pg 377) </ref>
-==In the Mishkan==
+=== In the Mishkan ===
-#Tochen (grinding) was performed in the mishkan in the process of crushing herbs to make dyes.<ref>Rashi Shabbos 73a s.v. HaOfeh. See 39 Melochos (Rabbi Ribiat vol. 2, Zoreiah footnote 7) </ref>
+# Tochen (grinding) was performed in the mishkan in the process of crushing herbs to make dyes.<ref>Rashi Shabbos 73a s.v. HaOfeh. See 39 Melochos (Rabbi Ribiat vol. 2, Zoreiah footnote 7) </ref>
 ==Utensils designed for grinding==
@@ Line 75: / Line 93: @@
 #There is a machloket amongst the poskim if the prohibition applies only if the food is being cut very small in all dimensions or if it even applies if one is slicing in one direction such as an egg or tomato.<ref>Rav Moshe Feinstein (Iggerot Moshe OC 4:74:Tochen 3) writes that slicing foods in one direction isn’t considered tochen because otherwise there would be no limit. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Sh”t Minchat Shlomo 91:13) also rules this way. On the other hand, Ketzot HaShulchan Siman 129 Badei HaShulchan 2 quotes that the Tzemach Tzedek was stringent. Additionally, Orchot Shabbos page 217 chapter 5:footnote 12 writes that Rav Elyashiv was stringent as well.<br /> </ref>
 ==Related Pages==

Gsilver2 at 02:41, 29 July 2024

2024-07-29T02:41:45Z

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			Tochen (lit: grinding) is one of the 39 melachot forbidden on shabbat. Below are its relevant details and practical applications.

	==Definition==		==Definition==

YitzchakSultan1 at 16:52, 13 July 2023

2023-07-13T16:52:55Z

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			{{Shabbat Table}}

Unknown user: /* For immediate consumption */

2020-11-05T04:33:02Z

For immediate consumption

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	#It's forbidden to crush a banana or avocado unless it's already so soft that when one pulls a part of the fruit, that part separates from the rest of the fruit. <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:7 </ref>		#It's forbidden to crush a banana or avocado unless it's already so soft that when one pulls a part of the fruit, that part separates from the rest of the fruit. <ref>Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 6:7 </ref>
	#There is a debate amongst the Poskim if the prohibition of Tochen applies to fruit or vegetables such as bananas and avocados which when mashed do not separate into individual pieces but rather just change shape and remain one large mass. Therefore, it is better to do so with a shinui.<ref>The Tosefta (Beitza 1:19) says that "Pressed or dried figs cannot be crushed before the elderly." The Chazon Ish (57, “nimtzeinu”) writes that when pressed or dried figs are crushed, they remain one mass, and therefore even in such a case tochen is applicable. In light of this, the Chazon Ish writes that it is forbidden to mash a banana even though it remains one mass, even for immediate eating (lishitaso with above about immediate eating). Therefore, he says one must do so with a shinui. However, Rav Moshe Feinstein (Iggerot Moshe OC 4:74:Tochen 2) rules that they are not subject to the prohibition of Tochen and may be mashed in the regular manner. He says even if we accept that the prohibition applies even for immediate eating, it is only applicable when one takes one body and turns it into smaller components. However, taking a substance and mashing it while it remains one mass isn’t a problem. He nevertheless concludes that if possible, one should do it with a shinui to be machmir for the Chazon Ish. Rabbi Ribiat (“The 39 Melochos” pg. 461) sides with Rav Moshe. Chacham Ovadia Yosef (Yechave Daat 5:27), though he agrees that mashing is included in tochen, permits one to mash a banana with a fork to feed immediately to a child. Rabbi Moshe Halevi (Menuchat Ahava 2: pg. 278), writes that he should preferably do so in an unusual manner, such as by using the handle of the fork. Shemirat Shabbos Kehilchita 6:7-8 forbids mashing a banana or avocado unless one uses a shinui. <br /> </ref>		#There is a debate amongst the Poskim if the prohibition of Tochen applies to fruit or vegetables such as bananas and avocados which when mashed do not separate into individual pieces but rather just change shape and remain one large mass. Therefore, it is better to do so with a shinui.<ref>The Tosefta (Beitza 1:19) says that "Pressed or dried figs cannot be crushed before the elderly." The Chazon Ish (57, “nimtzeinu”) writes that when pressed or dried figs are crushed, they remain one mass, and therefore even in such a case tochen is applicable. In light of this, the Chazon Ish writes that it is forbidden to mash a banana even though it remains one mass, even for immediate eating (lishitaso with above about immediate eating). Therefore, he says one must do so with a shinui. However, Rav Moshe Feinstein (Iggerot Moshe OC 4:74:Tochen 2) rules that they are not subject to the prohibition of Tochen and may be mashed in the regular manner. He says even if we accept that the prohibition applies even for immediate eating, it is only applicable when one takes one body and turns it into smaller components. However, taking a substance and mashing it while it remains one mass isn’t a problem. He nevertheless concludes that if possible, one should do it with a shinui to be machmir for the Chazon Ish. Rabbi Ribiat (“The 39 Melochos” pg. 461) sides with Rav Moshe. Chacham Ovadia Yosef (Yechave Daat 5:27), though he agrees that mashing is included in tochen, permits one to mash a banana with a fork to feed immediately to a child. Rabbi Moshe Halevi (Menuchat Ahava 2: pg. 278), writes that he should preferably do so in an unusual manner, such as by using the handle of the fork. Shemirat Shabbos Kehilchita 6:7-8 forbids mashing a banana or avocado unless one uses a shinui. <br /> </ref>
			# Some say it is permitted to ask a non-Jew to cut up vegetables Friday night after the meal or Shabbat morning for lunch even though it isn't for immediate consumption.<ref>[https://www.torahanytime.com/#/lectures?v=128698 Rav Yitzchak Yosef (Motzei Shabbat Lech Lecha 5781, min 41-52)] explains that it is permitted to ask a non-Jew to chop up vegetables for a salad for lunch far in advance since there are some opinions in the rishonim who would permit it since the vegetables were edible raw. </ref>

	==Cooked Fruits and Vegetables==		==Cooked Fruits and Vegetables==