When Is It Permitted to Benefit the Lender - Revision history

YitzchakSultan1: /* Non-Financial Benefit */

2025-05-29T20:30:24Z

Non-Financial Benefit

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:30, 29 May 2025
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	==Non-Financial Benefit==		==Non-Financial Benefit==
	# It’s forbidden for the borrower to do a favor to the lender if he would not have done it otherwise (if not for the loan). Even if the borrower would have done a certain favor if not for the loan, the borrower may not do that favor in public unless they have a good relationship and the borrower has done public favors for the lender in the past.<Ref>The Weekly Halachah Discussion (vol 2, pg 346) </ref>		# It’s forbidden for the borrower to do a favor to the lender if he would not have done it otherwise (if not for the loan). Even if the borrower would have done a certain favor if not for the loan, the borrower may not do that favor in public unless they have a good relationship and the borrower has done public favors for the lender in the past.<Ref>The Weekly Halachah Discussion (vol 2, pg 346) </ref>
	# While some ''poskim'' prohibit the borrower from thanking the lender for the loan under the prohibition of ribbit devarim <Ref> Iggerot Moshe YD 1:80 </ref>, other ''poskim'' are lenient and allow a simple thank you. <ref> Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach in Minchat Shlomo 1:27 </ref>		# While some ''poskim'' prohibit the borrower from thanking the lender for the loan under the prohibition of ''ribbit devarim'',<Ref> Iggerot Moshe YD 1:80 </ref> other ''poskim'' are lenient and allow a simple thank you.<ref> Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach in Minchat Shlomo 1:27 </ref>
	# There’s no prohibition to do a non-financial favor after the loan was paid up. <Ref> Birkei Yosef Y”D 160:11, The Weekly Halachah Discussion (vol 2, pg 348), Malveh Hashem (vol 1, 8:30) </ref>		# There’s no prohibition to do a non-financial favor after the loan was paid up.<Ref> Birkei Yosef Y”D 160:11, The Weekly Halachah Discussion (vol 2, pg 348), Malveh Hashem (vol 1, 8:30) </ref> However, it is forbidden to praise or flatter the lender in order to get a loan.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Harav (Ribbit n. 9)</ref>
	==Collateral Fields==		==Collateral Fields==
	{\| class="wikitable" style="vertical-align:bottom;"		{\| class="wikitable" style="vertical-align:bottom;"

YitzchakSultan1: /* Payments from a Borrower to a Third Party */

2025-05-29T20:27:45Z

Payments from a Borrower to a Third Party

YitzchakSultan1: /* Gifts or Favors from the Borrower */

2024-11-27T22:28:09Z

Gifts or Favors from the Borrower

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:28, 27 November 2024
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	==Gifts or Favors from the Borrower==		==Gifts or Favors from the Borrower==
	#It is forbidden for the borrower to give a gift or interest to the lender even before or after a loan from another Jew and certainly during the loan.<ref>Mishna Bava Metsia 75b, Shulchan Aruch YD 160:6</ref> If someone does so they violated ''avak ribbit'' (rabbinic interest).<ref>Shulchan Aruch YD 160:6, Shach 160:8. Bet Yosef 160:5 inquires whether giving a gift after the loan that was specified for the loan is considered a biblical violation of ribbit or only rabbinic. He notes that the Rambam Malveh Vloveh 6:3 who writes that one only violates ribbit biblically if it was specified at the time of the initial loan would think this is only rabbinic ribbit. See Bet Yosef 166:3 that perhaps Rashi holds it is biblical.</ref>		#It is forbidden for the borrower to give a gift or interest to the lender even before or after a loan from another Jew and certainly during the loan.<ref>Mishna Bava Metsia 75b, Shulchan Aruch YD 160:6</ref> If someone does so they violated ''avak ribbit'' (rabbinic interest).<ref>Shulchan Aruch YD 160:6, Shach 160:8. Bet Yosef 160:5 inquires whether giving a gift after the loan that was specified for the loan is considered a biblical violation of ribbit or only rabbinic. He notes that the Rambam Malveh Vloveh 6:3 who writes that one only violates ribbit biblically if it was specified at the time of the initial loan would think this is only rabbinic ribbit. See Bet Yosef 166:3 that perhaps Rashi holds it is biblical.</ref>
	##A gift from the potential borrower to the potential lender before the loan in order to convince the potential lender to lend him money is called ''ribbit mukdemet'' (''heb''. רבית מוקדמת; ''trans''. early interest) and is forbidden.<ref>Bava Metsia 75b, Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 160:6</ref> If a borrower arranges in advance that if the lender takes his gift he will be obligated to lend him money, that is forbidden a violation of biblical ribbit.<ref>Chavot Daat 160:3</ref>		##A gift from the potential borrower to the potential lender before the loan in order to convince the potential lender to lend him money is called ''ribbit mukdemet'' (''heb''. רבית מוקדמת; ''trans''. early interest) and is forbidden.<ref>Bava Metsia 75b, Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 160:6</ref> If a borrower arranges in advance that if the lender takes his gift he will be obligated to lend him money, that is forbidden a violation of biblical ribbit.<ref>Chavot Daat 160:3, Rabbi Akiva Eiger 160:6. See Bet Yosef 160:6 s.v. vyesh who seems to take a similar approach. </ref>
	##A gift from the borrower to the lender after the loan was completely paid up to thank the lender for the loan is called ''ribbit me'ucheret'' (''heb''. רבית מאוחרת; ''trans''. late interest) and is forbidden.<ref>Bava Metsia 75b, Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 160:6</ref> ~~Some~~ ''~~rishonim~~'' ~~consider this~~ less serious than ''avak ribbit''.<ref>Rashba 1:938 cited by Bet Yosef 160:23. Rashba indicates that the ~~primary~~ prohibition is upon the lender and not borrower. Nonetheless, the lender may not do it since he's causing the borrower to stumble in a sin. </ref>		##A gift from the borrower to the lender after the loan was completely paid up to thank the lender for the loan is called ''ribbit me'ucheret'' (''heb''. רבית מאוחרת; ''trans''. late interest) and is forbidden.<ref>Bava Metsia 75b, Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 160:6</ref>
			##The prohibitions of ''ribbit mukdemet'' and ''ribbit me'ucheret'' are considered less serious than ''avak ribbit'' and after the fact the lender does not need return them.<ref>Rashba 1:938 (cited by Bet Yosef 160:23), Rama 161:2, Rabbi Akiva Eiger 160:6. Rashba indicates that the prohibition is upon the lender and not borrower. Nonetheless, the lender may not do it since he's causing the borrower to stumble in a sin. </ref>
	#It is forbidden for the borrower to voluntarily add a little extra or throw in a gift when he is repaying the loan, even though he doesn't specify that it is because of the loan.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 160:4</ref> If someone isn't paying for a loan, but rather for a sale or the like he may add extra when paying back if he doesn't specify that it is because of the loan.<ref>Bava Metsia 73b, Rama 160:4, Shach 160:5</ref>		#It is forbidden for the borrower to voluntarily add a little extra or throw in a gift when he is repaying the loan, even though he doesn't specify that it is because of the loan.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 160:4</ref> If someone isn't paying for a loan, but rather for a sale or the like he may add extra when paying back if he doesn't specify that it is because of the loan.<ref>Bava Metsia 73b, Rama 160:4, Shach 160:5</ref>
	===Before or After the Loan===		===Before or After the Loan===

YitzchakSultan1: /* Before or After the Loan */

2024-11-27T22:17:11Z

Before or After the Loan

Show changes

YitzchakSultan1: /* Gifts or Favors from the Borrower */

2024-11-25T22:20:22Z

Gifts or Favors from the Borrower

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:20, 25 November 2024
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	==Gifts or Favors from the Borrower==		==Gifts or Favors from the Borrower==
	#It is forbidden to give a gift or interest even before or after a loan from another Jew and certainly during the loan.<ref>Mishna Bava Metsia 75b, Shulchan Aruch YD 160:6</ref> If someone does so they violated avak ribbit.<ref>Shulchan Aruch YD 160:6, Shach 160:8. Bet Yosef 160:5 inquires whether giving a gift after the loan that was specified for the loan is considered a biblical violation of ribbit or only rabbinic. He notes that the Rambam Malveh Vloveh 6:3 who writes that one only violates ribbit biblically if it was specified at the time of the initial loan would think this is only rabbinic ribbit. See Bet Yosef 166:3 that perhaps Rashi holds it is biblical.</ref>		#It is forbidden for the borrower to give a gift or interest to the lender even before or after a loan from another Jew and certainly during the loan.<ref>Mishna Bava Metsia 75b, Shulchan Aruch YD 160:6</ref> If someone does so they violated ''avak ribbit'' (rabbinic interest).<ref>Shulchan Aruch YD 160:6, Shach 160:8. Bet Yosef 160:5 inquires whether giving a gift after the loan that was specified for the loan is considered a biblical violation of ribbit or only rabbinic. He notes that the Rambam Malveh Vloveh 6:3 who writes that one only violates ribbit biblically if it was specified at the time of the initial loan would think this is only rabbinic ribbit. See Bet Yosef 166:3 that perhaps Rashi holds it is biblical.</ref>
			#It is forbidden for the borrower to voluntarily add a little extra or throw in a gift when he is repaying the loan, even though he doesn't specify that it is because of the loan.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 160:4</ref> If someone isn't paying for a loan, but rather for a sale or the like he may add extra when paying back if he doesn't specify that it is because of the loan.<ref>Bava Metsia 73b, Rama 160:4, Shach 160:5</ref>
	===Before or After the Loan===		===Before or After the Loan===
	# Some say that it is permitted to give a gift before or after the loan from another Jew if you don’t specify that it is because of the loan.<ref>Tur 160:6, Bet Yosef citing Rosh b"m 5:67, Hagot Mordechai 433, Smak 260, and Rashi 73b s.v. achulei, and Rama 160:6. Smag cited by Tur 160:6 makes a compromise to allow it if it is a small gift. Rashi 73b s.v. achulei implies that as long as one doesn’t specify that a gift isn’t because of the loan it is permitted even at the time of returning the loan. However, the Rosh b”m 5:67 argues that it is only permitted after payment of the loan. Bet Yosef 160:4 cites the Talmidei Harashba who says that it is only permitted to give an extra gift if it was a sale and not a loan.</ref> However, others disagree.<ref>Rambam Malveh Uloveh 5:11, Shulchan Aruch 160:6</ref> Ashkenazim follow the first opinion and Sephardim the second.<ref>Laws of Ribbis p. 87 is lenient.</ref>		# Some say that it is permitted to give a gift before or after the loan from another Jew if you don’t specify that it is because of the loan.<ref>Tur 160:6, Bet Yosef citing Rosh b"m 5:67, Hagot Mordechai 433, Smak 260, and Rashi 73b s.v. achulei, and Rama 160:6. Smag cited by Tur 160:6 makes a compromise to allow it if it is a small gift. Rashi 73b s.v. achulei implies that as long as one doesn’t specify that a gift isn’t because of the loan it is permitted even at the time of returning the loan. However, the Rosh b”m 5:67 argues that it is only permitted after payment of the loan. Bet Yosef 160:4 cites the Talmidei Harashba who says that it is only permitted to give an extra gift if it was a sale and not a loan.</ref> However, others disagree.<ref>Rambam Malveh Uloveh 5:11, Shulchan Aruch 160:6</ref> Ashkenazim follow the first opinion and Sephardim the second.<ref>Laws of Ribbis p. 87 is lenient.</ref>

YitzchakSultan1: /* Favors, Kind Gestures, and Saying Thank You (Ribbit Devarim) */

2024-09-18T21:20:51Z

Favors, Kind Gestures, and Saying Thank You (Ribbit Devarim)

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:20, 18 September 2024
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	# Ribbit Devarim only applies during the duration of the loan and not before or afterwards.<ref>Rabbenu Yerucham Meisharim 8:1, Meyuchas LRitva Bava Metsia 68b s.v. visura, Radvaz 3:1060, Chelket Binyamin 160:99 and 95 citing Ran Ketubot 46a, Sefer Hatrumot 3:13, Shulchan Aruch 160:10</ref> Some say that even after the loan is repaid it is forbidden to thank someone for a loan explicitly because of the loan; also it is forbidden to flatter someone to give you a loan before the loan begins.<reF>Horah Brurah on 160:11 citing Shulchan Aruch Harav 160:9</ref>		# Ribbit Devarim only applies during the duration of the loan and not before or afterwards.<ref>Rabbenu Yerucham Meisharim 8:1, Meyuchas LRitva Bava Metsia 68b s.v. visura, Radvaz 3:1060, Chelket Binyamin 160:99 and 95 citing Ran Ketubot 46a, Sefer Hatrumot 3:13, Shulchan Aruch 160:10</ref> Some say that even after the loan is repaid it is forbidden to thank someone for a loan explicitly because of the loan; also it is forbidden to flatter someone to give you a loan before the loan begins.<reF>Horah Brurah on 160:11 citing Shulchan Aruch Harav 160:9</ref>
	# Many poskim permit thanking the lender with a simple thank you.<ref>Laws of Ribbis p. 69 quoting Rav Elyashiv and a suggestion of Rav Shlomo Zalman. See also [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/866229/rabbi-aryeh-lebowitz/from-the-rabbi-s-desk-the-prohibition-to-say-thank-you/ Rabbi Aryeh Lebowitz].<br>		# Many poskim permit thanking the lender with a simple thank you.<ref>Laws of Ribbis p. 69 quoting Rav Elyashiv and a suggestion of Rav Shlomo Zalman. See also [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/866229/rabbi-aryeh-lebowitz/from-the-rabbi-s-desk-the-prohibition-to-say-thank-you/ Rabbi Aryeh Lebowitz].<br>
	*[https://www.torahbase.org/%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%A9%D7%AA-%D7%9B%D7%99-%D7%AA%D7%A6%D7%90-%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%99%D7%AA-%D7%91%D7%93%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%95%D7%91%D7%98%D7%95%D7%91%D7%AA-%D7%94%D7%A0%D7%90%D7%94/ Rav Osher Weiss] argues emphatically that a simple thank you is permitted and proper.		*Rav Osher Weiss (Minchat Asher Tinyana Devarim p. 500, Ki Tetsey siman 62) argues emphatically that a simple thank you is permitted and proper.
	*Horaa Berura 160:60 permits this as well because it is just being polite. Additionally, since he will respond with a "you're welcome," the two pleasantries cancel each other out. He adds (Shaar Hatziyun 137) that it would only be allowed at the time of borrowing or repaying, but not at a random other time where it isn't necessary.		*Horaa Berura 160:60 permits this as well because it is just being polite. Additionally, since he will respond with a "you're welcome," the two pleasantries cancel each other out. He adds (Shaar Hatziyun 137) that it would only be allowed at the time of borrowing or repaying, but not at a random other time where it isn't necessary.
	*[https://www.torahanytime.com/#/lectures?a=16507 Rabbi Gershon West] says in the name of Rav Shmuel Fuerst, that even though Rav Moshe Feinstein writes that publishing a thank you in a sefer is not permitted, he would allow saying a thank you when borrowing.		*[https://www.torahanytime.com/#/lectures?a=16507 Rabbi Gershon West] says in the name of Rav Shmuel Fuerst, that even though Rav Moshe Feinstein writes that publishing a thank you in a sefer is not permitted, he would allow saying a thank you when borrowing.
	*Chacham Ovadia Yosef (Halichot Olam 8: pg. 14) allows it. Ribbis Le-Or Ha-Halachah cites from Chacham Ben-Zion Abba Shaul that one can be lenient in this matter.</ref> Others question the permissibility since it is giving something to the lender in return for the loan in addition to the original loan. Some are lenient since it is a generally accepted custom to thank people for very small favors and so it is rude to do otherwise and if the entire expression of gratitude is minimal it is like it was normal to do beforehand. see also Orchos Rabbenu 4: pg. 65 who writes that when the Chazon Ish would lend someone money, he would tell them not to say thank you<ref>		*Chacham Ovadia Yosef (Halichot Olam 8: pg. 14) allows thanking the lender after the loan is paid up. He says it is better only to pay it after toch kdei dibbur. Ribbis Le-Or Ha-Halachah cites from Chacham Ben-Zion Abba Shaul that one can be lenient in this matter.
			*Torah Temimah (Devarim 23:20 fnt. 105) writes that the minhag is to say thank you for a loan. He explains that he means it is a thank you for the effort the lender exerted to make the loan available. </ref> Others question the permissibility since it is giving something to the lender in return for the loan in addition to the original loan. Some are lenient since it is a generally accepted custom to thank people for very small favors and so it is rude to do otherwise and if the entire expression of gratitude is minimal it is like it was normal to do beforehand. see also Orchos Rabbenu 4: pg. 65 who writes that when the Chazon Ish would lend someone money, he would tell them not to say thank you<ref>
	* Chelkat Binyamin 160:108 presents reasons to be lenient since thanking someone for a loan is merely a sign of derech eretz and not in exchange for the loan. See there at length. Additionally, he cites Minchat Shlomo 1:27:1 and 2:68 based on Graz is strict.<br>		* Chelkat Binyamin 160:108 presents reasons to be lenient since thanking someone for a loan is merely a sign of derech eretz and not in exchange for the loan. See there at length. Additionally, he cites Minchat Shlomo 1:27:1 and 2:68 based on Graz is strict.<br>
	</ref>		</ref>

YitzchakSultan1: /* Favors, Kind Gestures, and Saying Thank You (Ribbit Devarim) */

2024-09-18T20:56:59Z

Favors, Kind Gestures, and Saying Thank You (Ribbit Devarim)

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:56, 18 September 2024
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	* Rav Elchonon Wasserman (Kovetz Shiurim Kiddushin Ot 77) writes that the implication of Tosafot Kiddushin 8b “Tzedaka Minayin” is that this prohibition is actually from the Torah. (See there where he questions such a possibility. See also Yabea Omer YD 4:9 where he discusses whether Tosafot really hold that way). Sefer Yereim 118 and Smag (Rav 193) hold this way. Yabea Omer 4:9 quotes this as the opinion of the Rivash 147 as well</ref>		* Rav Elchonon Wasserman (Kovetz Shiurim Kiddushin Ot 77) writes that the implication of Tosafot Kiddushin 8b “Tzedaka Minayin” is that this prohibition is actually from the Torah. (See there where he questions such a possibility. See also Yabea Omer YD 4:9 where he discusses whether Tosafot really hold that way). Sefer Yereim 118 and Smag (Rav 193) hold this way. Yabea Omer 4:9 quotes this as the opinion of the Rivash 147 as well</ref>
	# Ribbit Devarim only applies during the duration of the loan and not before or afterwards.<ref>Rabbenu Yerucham Meisharim 8:1, Meyuchas LRitva Bava Metsia 68b s.v. visura, Radvaz 3:1060, Chelket Binyamin 160:99 and 95 citing Ran Ketubot 46a, Sefer Hatrumot 3:13, Shulchan Aruch 160:10</ref> Some say that even after the loan is repaid it is forbidden to thank someone for a loan explicitly because of the loan; also it is forbidden to flatter someone to give you a loan before the loan begins.<reF>Horah Brurah on 160:11 citing Shulchan Aruch Harav 160:9</ref>		# Ribbit Devarim only applies during the duration of the loan and not before or afterwards.<ref>Rabbenu Yerucham Meisharim 8:1, Meyuchas LRitva Bava Metsia 68b s.v. visura, Radvaz 3:1060, Chelket Binyamin 160:99 and 95 citing Ran Ketubot 46a, Sefer Hatrumot 3:13, Shulchan Aruch 160:10</ref> Some say that even after the loan is repaid it is forbidden to thank someone for a loan explicitly because of the loan; also it is forbidden to flatter someone to give you a loan before the loan begins.<reF>Horah Brurah on 160:11 citing Shulchan Aruch Harav 160:9</ref>
	# Many poskim permit thanking the lender with a simple thank you<ref>~~see~~ [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/866229/rabbi-aryeh-lebowitz/from-the-rabbi-s-desk-the-prohibition-to-say-thank-you/ Rabbi Aryeh Lebowitz]<br>		# Many poskim permit thanking the lender with a simple thank you.<ref>Laws of Ribbis p. 69 quoting Rav Elyashiv and a suggestion of Rav Shlomo Zalman. See also [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/866229/rabbi-aryeh-lebowitz/from-the-rabbi-s-desk-the-prohibition-to-say-thank-you/ Rabbi Aryeh Lebowitz].<br>
	* [https://www.torahbase.org/%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%A9%D7%AA-%D7%9B%D7%99-%D7%AA%D7%A6%D7%90-%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%99%D7%AA-%D7%91%D7%93%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%95%D7%91%D7%98%D7%95%D7%91%D7%AA-%D7%94%D7%A0%D7%90%D7%94/ Rav Osher Weiss] argues emphatically that a simple thank you is permitted and proper		*[https://www.torahbase.org/%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%A9%D7%AA-%D7%9B%D7%99-%D7%AA%D7%A6%D7%90-%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%99%D7%AA-%D7%91%D7%93%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%95%D7%91%D7%98%D7%95%D7%91%D7%AA-%D7%94%D7%A0%D7%90%D7%94/ Rav Osher Weiss] argues emphatically that a simple thank you is permitted and proper.
	* Horaa Berura 160:60 permits this as well because it is just being polite. Additionally, since he will respond with a "you're welcome," the two pleasantries cancel each other out. He adds (Shaar Hatziyun 137) that it would only be allowed at the time of borrowing or repaying, but not at a random other time where it isn't necessary.		*Horaa Berura 160:60 permits this as well because it is just being polite. Additionally, since he will respond with a "you're welcome," the two pleasantries cancel each other out. He adds (Shaar Hatziyun 137) that it would only be allowed at the time of borrowing or repaying, but not at a random other time where it isn't necessary.
	* [https://www.torahanytime.com/#/lectures?a=16507 Rabbi Gershon West] says in the name of Rav Shmuel Fuerst, that even though Rav Moshe Feinstein writes that publishing a thank you in a sefer is not permitted, he would allow saying a thank you when borrowing.		*[https://www.torahanytime.com/#/lectures?a=16507 Rabbi Gershon West] says in the name of Rav Shmuel Fuerst, that even though Rav Moshe Feinstein writes that publishing a thank you in a sefer is not permitted, he would allow saying a thank you when borrowing.
	* Chacham Ovadia Yosef (Halichot Olam 8: pg. 14) allows it. Ribbis Le-Or Ha-Halachah cites from Chacham Ben-Zion Abba Shaul that one can be lenient in this matter</ref> Others question the permissibility since it is giving something to the lender in return for the loan in addition to the original loan. Some are lenient since it is a generally accepted custom to thank people for very small favors and so it is rude to do otherwise and if the entire expression of gratitude is minimal it is like it was normal to do beforehand. see also Orchos Rabbenu 4: pg. 65 who writes that when the Chazon Ish would lend someone money, he would tell them not to say thank you<ref>		*Chacham Ovadia Yosef (Halichot Olam 8: pg. 14) allows it. Ribbis Le-Or Ha-Halachah cites from Chacham Ben-Zion Abba Shaul that one can be lenient in this matter.</ref> Others question the permissibility since it is giving something to the lender in return for the loan in addition to the original loan. Some are lenient since it is a generally accepted custom to thank people for very small favors and so it is rude to do otherwise and if the entire expression of gratitude is minimal it is like it was normal to do beforehand. see also Orchos Rabbenu 4: pg. 65 who writes that when the Chazon Ish would lend someone money, he would tell them not to say thank you<ref>
	* Chelkat Binyamin 160:108 presents reasons to be lenient since thanking someone for a loan is merely a sign of derech eretz and not in exchange for the loan. See there at length. Additionally, he cites Minchat Shlomo 1:27:1 and 2:68 based on Graz is strict.<br>		* Chelkat Binyamin 160:108 presents reasons to be lenient since thanking someone for a loan is merely a sign of derech eretz and not in exchange for the loan. See there at length. Additionally, he cites Minchat Shlomo 1:27:1 and 2:68 based on Graz is strict.<br>
	</ref>		</ref>

YitzchakSultan1: Text replacement - "S"A" to "Shulchan Aruch"

2023-07-13T19:02:17Z

Text replacement - "S"A" to "Shulchan Aruch"

Unknown user: Text replacement - " Biblical" to " biblical"

2020-12-02T17:51:07Z

Text replacement - " Biblical" to " biblical"

Show changes

Unknown user: /* Paying for Fees */

2020-07-06T21:24:53Z

Paying for Fees

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:24, 6 July 2020
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	===Paying for Fees===		===Paying for Fees===
	# It is forbidden for the agent accepting the investment to do any favors or pay for any fees on behalf of the investment that benefits the investor unless it is customary in that business that the agent or seller would do that and not the investor.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 177:21</ref>		# It is forbidden for the agent accepting the investment to do any favors or pay for any fees on behalf of the investment that benefits the investor unless it is customary in that business that the agent or seller would do that and not the investor.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 177:21</ref>
			# It is forbidden for the borrower to pay for a loss than the lender incurred because the borrower didn't pay back on time. This includes a loss of profits<ref>Rashba 3:227 writes that it is forbidden to pay for the loss of profits of the lender, otherwise no ribbit would be forbidden.</ref> and a loss if he had to take out an interest loan from a non-Jew.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 161:8. See Shevet Halevi 9:172 who forbids paying for lost profits but permits paying for interest payments the lender made to a non-Jew since that is considered like a damage he incurred because of the borrower.</ref> For example, if one Jew borrows another Jew's credit card and doesn't pay back on time if the credit card owner ends up paying the interest to the credit card company the borrower may not repay that interest to the lender.<ref>Laws of Interest 4:5 p. 79</ref>
			# It is permitted for the borrower to pay for the writing of the contract, even for a part investment which is also for the benefit of the lender, for the security of the loan, and for the fee of extracting the money from the bank if the lender wasn't also doing it for himself.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 161:8</ref>
			# For example, if the lender is penalized by the bank for taking out his money early from an investment (such as a CD) in order to lend that money the borrower can pay for that fee.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 161:8. Laws of Interest p. 82 fnt. 16 cites Rabbi J. David Bleich who argues.</ref> This applies specifically if he lost some of the capital or he already acquired interest and is now penalized, however, if he didn't yet acquire the interest the borrower may not pay for that loss.<ref>Laws of Interest 4:9 p. 81</ref>
			# A gamach which charges a fee for a loan in order to ensure the upkeep of the gamach is a question but some permit it, yet it is better to do so without stipulating that it be paid. Either way the fee shouldn't be dependent on the amount of the loan.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 161:8</ref>
			# It is forbidden to pay the lender for his time and effort even if it meant he took off from work to arrange this.<ref>Laws of Interest 4:2, p. 79</ref>

	==Non-Financial Benefit==		==Non-Financial Benefit==

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	==Gifts or Favors from the Borrower==		==Gifts or Favors from the Borrower==
	#It is forbidden for the borrower to give a gift or interest to the lender even before or after a loan from another Jew and certainly during the loan.<ref>Mishna Bava Metsia 75b, Shulchan Aruch YD 160:6</ref> If someone does so they violated ''avak ribbit'' (rabbinic interest).<ref>Shulchan Aruch YD 160:6, Shach 160:8. Bet Yosef 160:5 inquires whether giving a gift after the loan that was specified for the loan is considered a biblical violation of ribbit or only rabbinic. He notes that the Rambam Malveh Vloveh 6:3 who writes that one only violates ribbit biblically if it was specified at the time of the initial loan would think this is only rabbinic ribbit. See Bet Yosef 166:3 that perhaps Rashi holds it is biblical.</ref>		#It is forbidden for the borrower to give a gift or interest to the lender even before or after a loan from another Jew and certainly during the loan.<ref>Mishna Bava Metsia 75b, Shulchan Aruch YD 160:6</ref> If someone does so they violated ''avak ribbit'' (rabbinic interest).<ref>Shulchan Aruch YD 160:6, Shach 160:8. Bet Yosef 160:5 inquires whether giving a gift after the loan that was specified for the loan is considered a biblical violation of ribbit or only rabbinic. He notes that the Rambam Malveh Vloveh 6:3 who writes that one only violates ribbit biblically if it was specified at the time of the initial loan would think this is only rabbinic ribbit. See Bet Yosef 166:3 that perhaps Rashi holds it is biblical.</ref>
	##A gift from the potential borrower to the potential lender before the loan in order to convince the potential lender to lend him money is called ''ribbit mukdemet'' (''heb''. רבית מוקדמת; ''trans''. early interest) and is forbidden.<ref>Bava Metsia 75b, Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 160:6</ref> If a borrower arranges in advance that if the lender takes his gift he will be obligated to lend him money, that is forbidden a violation of biblical ribbit.<ref>Chavot Daat 160:3, Rabbi Akiva Eiger 160:6. See Bet Yosef 160:6 s.v. vyesh who seems to take a similar approach. </ref>		##A gift from the potential borrower to the potential lender before the loan in order to convince the potential lender to lend him money is called ''ribbit mukdemet'' (''heb''. רבית מוקדמת; ''trans''. early interest) and is forbidden.<ref>Bava Metsia 75b, Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 160:6, Shulchan Aruch Harav (Ribbit n. 7)</ref> If a borrower arranges in advance that if the lender takes his gift he will be obligated to lend him money, that is forbidden a violation of biblical ribbit.<ref>Chavot Daat 160:3, Rabbi Akiva Eiger 160:6. See Bet Yosef 160:6 s.v. vyesh who seems to take a similar approach. </ref>
	##A gift from the borrower to the lender after the loan was completely paid up to thank the lender for the loan is called ''ribbit me'ucheret'' (''heb''. רבית מאוחרת; ''trans''. late interest) and is forbidden.<ref>Bava Metsia 75b, Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 160:6</ref>		##A gift from the borrower to the lender after the loan was completely paid up to thank the lender for the loan is called ''ribbit me'ucheret'' (''heb''. רבית מאוחרת; ''trans''. late interest) and is forbidden.<ref>Bava Metsia 75b, Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 160:6</ref>
	##The prohibitions of ''ribbit mukdemet'' and ''ribbit me'ucheret'' are considered less serious than ''avak ribbit'' and after the fact the lender does not need return them.<ref>Rashba 1:938 (cited by Bet Yosef 160:23), Rama 161:2, Rabbi Akiva Eiger 160:6. Rashba indicates that the prohibition is upon the lender and not borrower. Nonetheless, the lender may not do it since he's causing the borrower to stumble in a sin. </ref>		##The prohibitions of ''ribbit mukdemet'' and ''ribbit me'ucheret'' are considered less serious than ''avak ribbit'' and after the fact the lender does not need return them.<ref>Rashba 1:938 (cited by Bet Yosef 160:23), Rama 161:2, Rabbi Akiva Eiger 160:6. Rashba indicates that the prohibition is upon the lender and not borrower. Nonetheless, the lender may not do it since he's causing the borrower to stumble in a sin. </ref>
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	==Payments from a Borrower to a Third Party==		==Payments from a Borrower to a Third Party==
	#It is forbidden to ask a borrower to pay back anything in excess of the capital to someone else or a tzedaka. That is considered biblical ribbit.<ref>Tosfot Bava Metsia 71b s.v. maso writes that it is obviously forbidden to have the borrower pay someone else for the loan since that is like he paid the original lender based on the principle of arev. An arev is a guarantor who is indebted because money was paid to someone else based on his word, similarly, the interest is being paid to the third party based on the agreement of the lender. This is true even if the third party isn’t Jewish. Bet Yosef 160:14 cites the Haghot Ashri 5:47, Rabbenu Yerucham 1:8 27b, Mordechai b”m 327-328, Ran responsa 29:7 who agree. Mordechai 327 specifically forbids asking the borrower to give money to tzedaka.</ref> If the third party already took the money the lender needs to return to the borrower the amount of that gift to the third party since he caused interest to be given.<ref>Mordechai b”m 327-328 clarifies that since giving the interest to a third party is biblical interest it must be returned by the lender. This is cited by the Shach 160:19. Even though the Pitchei Teshuva 160:11 quotes that Rabbi Akiva Eiger wasn’t sure about this, Chelkat Binyamin p. 78 clarifies that it was only the questioner to Rabbi Eiger who wasn’t sure but Rabbi Eiger certainly would accept the Shach. </ref>		#It is forbidden to ask a borrower to pay back anything in excess of the capital to someone else or a [[Charity\|''tzedaka'']]. That is considered biblical ribbit.<ref>Tosfot Bava Metsia 71b s.v. maso writes that it is obviously forbidden to have the borrower pay someone else for the loan since that is like he paid the original lender based on the principle of arev. An arev is a guarantor who is indebted because money was paid to someone else based on his word, similarly, the interest is being paid to the third party based on the agreement of the lender. This is true even if the third party isn’t Jewish. Bet Yosef 160:14 cites the Haghot Ashri 5:47, Rabbenu Yerucham 1:8 27b, Mordechai b”m 327-328, Ran responsa 29:7 who agree. Mordechai 327 specifically forbids asking the borrower to give money to tzedaka. This halacha is codified by Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 160:14, Shulchan Aruch Harav (Ribbit n. 59), and Ben Ish Chai (Ekev, Shana Sheniya n. 10). </ref> If the third party already took the money the lender needs to return to the borrower the amount of that gift to the third party since he caused interest to be given.<ref>Mordechai b”m 327-328 clarifies that since giving the interest to a third party is biblical interest it must be returned by the lender. This is cited by the Shach 160:19. Even though the Pitchei Teshuva 160:11 quotes that Rabbi Akiva Eiger wasn’t sure about this, Chelkat Binyamin p. 78 clarifies that it was only the questioner to Rabbi Eiger who wasn’t sure but Rabbi Eiger certainly would accept the Shach. </ref>
	#It doesn’t matter if the lender initiated this stipulation or the borrower initiated the stipulation and the lender agreed to lend on that condition.<Ref>Rama 160:14</ref>		#It doesn’t matter if the lender initiated this stipulation or the borrower initiated the stipulation and the lender agreed to lend on that condition.<Ref>Rama 160:14</ref>
	===Payments to a Third Party to Create a Loan===		===Payments to a Third Party to Create a Loan===
	# It is permitted to pay a third party ~~in order that he~~ encourage someone to lend you money since the recipient of the payment isn’t the lender.<ref>Gemara Bava Metsia 69b, Shulchan Aruch ~~308~~:16</ref>		# It is permitted to pay a third party to encourage someone to lend you money since the recipient of the payment isn’t the lender.<ref>Gemara Bava Metsia 69b, Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 160:16</ref>
	# This third party could be anyone besides a close family member such as a financially dependent child of the lender.<ref>Shulchan Aruch 308:16. Taz 160:10 adds that a child even if they’re not financially dependant on the father it is forbidden to pay them since it is like paying the lender themselves. Shach 160:21 agrees. Pitchei Teshuva 160:12 cites the Lechem Rav who says that paying a husband to encourage his wife to lend him is forbidden since they are financially connected.</ref>		# This third party could be anyone besides a close family member such as a financially dependent child of the lender.<ref>Shulchan Aruch 308:16. Taz 160:10 adds that a child even if they’re not financially dependant on the father it is forbidden to pay them since it is like paying the lender themselves. Shach 160:21 agrees. Pitchei Teshuva 160:12 cites the Lechem Rav who says that paying a husband to encourage his wife to lend him is forbidden since they are financially connected.</ref>
	# It is forbidden for this recipient to give the money to the lender.<ref>Rama 160:16 writes that it is forbidden for the recipient of the money to give it to the lender since it is like a scheme of how to pay interest.</ref>		# It is forbidden for this recipient to give the money to the lender.<ref>Rama 160:16 writes that it is forbidden for the recipient of the money to give it to the lender since it is like a scheme of how to pay interest.</ref>

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:02, 13 July 2023
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	===Mitzvot===		===Mitzvot===
	# It is forbidden to teach one’s lender or his son Torah during the duration of the loan unless he did so regularly before the loan.<ref>Rambam Malveh Vloveh 5:12, Shulchan Aruch 160:10. See Chavot Daat 160 who writes that according to the Rashba responsa 799 it should be permitted to teach him Torah since the lender didn't gain any financial gain. Nonetheless, Chavot Daat explains that we follow the Rambam who holds that any expenditure of money or time of the borrower for the sake of the lender is forbidden.</ref>		# It is forbidden to teach one’s lender or his son Torah during the duration of the loan unless he did so regularly before the loan.<ref>Rambam Malveh Vloveh 5:12, Shulchan Aruch 160:10. See Chavot Daat 160 who writes that according to the Rashba responsa 799 it should be permitted to teach him Torah since the lender didn't gain any financial gain. Nonetheless, Chavot Daat explains that we follow the Rambam who holds that any expenditure of money or time of the borrower for the sake of the lender is forbidden.</ref>
	# It is forbidden to do the pidyon haben of one's son with one's lender.<ref>Mishnat Ribbit 4:24 citing Ketav Sofer 146, Brit Yehuda 11 fnt 49. Mishnat Ribbit points out (based on ~~S"A~~ Y.D. 160:23) that this is forbidden even if the lender didn't stipulate in the beginning of the loan that the borrower must do the pidyon haben with him.</ref>		# It is forbidden to do the pidyon haben of one's son with one's lender.<ref>Mishnat Ribbit 4:24 citing Ketav Sofer 146, Brit Yehuda 11 fnt 49. Mishnat Ribbit points out (based on Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 160:23) that this is forbidden even if the lender didn't stipulate in the beginning of the loan that the borrower must do the pidyon haben with him.</ref>
	#It is forbidden to buy an honor in Shul for one's lender.<Ref>Shach 166:1</ref>		#It is forbidden to buy an honor in Shul for one's lender.<Ref>Shach 166:1</ref>

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	# If the lender initiates a greeting, the borrower can respond.<ref> The Laws of Ribbis 3:11 based on the language of Shulchan Aruch 160:11 </ref>		# If the lender initiates a greeting, the borrower can respond.<ref> The Laws of Ribbis 3:11 based on the language of Shulchan Aruch 160:11 </ref>
	# It is forbidden for the lender to ask the borrower for any favor even something simple as alerting him when someone will come to a certain place.<ref>Mishna Bava Metsia 75b, Shulchan Aruch 160:12</ref>		# It is forbidden for the lender to ask the borrower for any favor even something simple as alerting him when someone will come to a certain place.<ref>Mishna Bava Metsia 75b, Shulchan Aruch 160:12</ref>
	# It is forbidden to ask the borrower to do something for you, even if he would have done so anyway.<ref>Taz 160:5 in explaining the Rambam, Chelkat Binyamin 160:111. Rav Meir Akoka in Bnetivot Hahorah 10:24 p. 150 proves from the ~~S"A~~ 172:4, ~~S"A~~ 160:23, and Mabit 1:6 unlike the Taz. He applies the Taz to many examples including: lending money on condition that he stops smoking, he puts conditions on how he can spend the money properly, for a certain apartment, how the loan is repaid with check or cash. </ref>		# It is forbidden to ask the borrower to do something for you, even if he would have done so anyway.<ref>Taz 160:5 in explaining the Rambam, Chelkat Binyamin 160:111. Rav Meir Akoka in Bnetivot Hahorah 10:24 p. 150 proves from the Shulchan Aruch 172:4, Shulchan Aruch 160:23, and Mabit 1:6 unlike the Taz. He applies the Taz to many examples including: lending money on condition that he stops smoking, he puts conditions on how he can spend the money properly, for a certain apartment, how the loan is repaid with check or cash. </ref>
	# The borrower can’t go to the simcha (celebration) of the lender unless he would have done so anyway.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 160:112</ref>		# The borrower can’t go to the simcha (celebration) of the lender unless he would have done so anyway.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 160:112</ref>

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	# It is forbidden to lend money on condition that the borrower does business with him or someone else<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 160::249</ref> specifically. There is a doubt if it is biblical interest or only rabbinic interest.<Ref>Shulchan Aruch YD 160:23. Taz 160:22 disagrees that it is certainly forbidden for a borrower to give trumah to a kohen lender since the lender is gaining but doing business with someone isn’t considered a gain since he is paying for a service. Nekudat Hakesef 160:23 writes that if the lender didn’t have a lot of business and this agreement gets him more business it is forbidden. Chelkat Binyamin 160:248 is strict for Shulchan Aruch certainly in a case of hiring a worker.</ref>		# It is forbidden to lend money on condition that the borrower does business with him or someone else<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 160::249</ref> specifically. There is a doubt if it is biblical interest or only rabbinic interest.<Ref>Shulchan Aruch YD 160:23. Taz 160:22 disagrees that it is certainly forbidden for a borrower to give trumah to a kohen lender since the lender is gaining but doing business with someone isn’t considered a gain since he is paying for a service. Nekudat Hakesef 160:23 writes that if the lender didn’t have a lot of business and this agreement gets him more business it is forbidden. Chelkat Binyamin 160:248 is strict for Shulchan Aruch certainly in a case of hiring a worker.</ref>
	#If the lender has a job it is forbidden to stipulate that the borrower use the lender for his services whenever he needs that type of service.<ref>Shulchan Aruch 160:23</ref>		#If the lender has a job it is forbidden to stipulate that the borrower use the lender for his services whenever he needs that type of service.<ref>Shulchan Aruch 160:23</ref>
	# If the borrower has a job it is forbidden to stipulate that the borrower do that job even for a fair price for the lender whenever the lender needs it.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 246 writes that the Gra 167:1 compares it to ~~S"A~~ YD 160:23. Chelkat Binyamin writes that according to the second answer of the Shach it is permitted but we shouldn't follow that answer alone.</ref>		# If the borrower has a job it is forbidden to stipulate that the borrower do that job even for a fair price for the lender whenever the lender needs it.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 246 writes that the Gra 167:1 compares it to Shulchan Aruch YD 160:23. Chelkat Binyamin writes that according to the second answer of the Shach it is permitted but we shouldn't follow that answer alone.</ref>
	# If there is no stipulation it is nonetheless forbidden for the borrower to do business with the lender to hire him specifically.<ref>Rama 160:23</ref> If the reason one is hiring him isn't because of the loan but because he has a better deal or the like it is permitted.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 160:253</ref>		# If there is no stipulation it is nonetheless forbidden for the borrower to do business with the lender to hire him specifically.<ref>Rama 160:23</ref> If the reason one is hiring him isn't because of the loan but because he has a better deal or the like it is permitted.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 160:253</ref>
	# If the lender is poor it is forbidden for the borrower to give him charity aside from repaying the loan. If he would have given him charity anyway if not for the loan it is permitted.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 160:254</ref>		# If the lender is poor it is forbidden for the borrower to give him charity aside from repaying the loan. If he would have given him charity anyway if not for the loan it is permitted.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 160:254</ref>
	# Many poskim say that it is forbidden for a seller to allow people to buy on credit only if they spend a certain amount. The reason is that having a minimum to buy on credit is like making a loan to the buyers on condition that they do more business with you.<ref>Mishnat Ribbit 4:34 cites Brit Yehuda 10:36 and Kuntres Acharon Lkitzur Dinei Ribbit 7:1 citing Rav Elyashiv and Rav Bronsdorfer as holding it is forbidden because this condition forces the buyer to spend more and that is like lending money on condition that someone does business specifically with you (~~S"A~~ 160:23). However, Rav Nissim Karelitz, Rav Halberstaum (Refidato Zahav), and Rav Ben Tzion Abba Shaul (Parshat Ribbit 10:20) permit it since it isn't clear that the buyer is buying extra because of the loan. Also the merchant can have such a limit not to in order to create such a condition but to benefit his bigger customers. Rav Karelitz held practically one shouldn't do this because it is common that a buyer will come to pay and then realize that he doesn't have enough and then go back in order to reach the limit, which would be obvious that he is doing so for the loan.</ref>		# Many poskim say that it is forbidden for a seller to allow people to buy on credit only if they spend a certain amount. The reason is that having a minimum to buy on credit is like making a loan to the buyers on condition that they do more business with you.<ref>Mishnat Ribbit 4:34 cites Brit Yehuda 10:36 and Kuntres Acharon Lkitzur Dinei Ribbit 7:1 citing Rav Elyashiv and Rav Bronsdorfer as holding it is forbidden because this condition forces the buyer to spend more and that is like lending money on condition that someone does business specifically with you (Shulchan Aruch 160:23). However, Rav Nissim Karelitz, Rav Halberstaum (Refidato Zahav), and Rav Ben Tzion Abba Shaul (Parshat Ribbit 10:20) permit it since it isn't clear that the buyer is buying extra because of the loan. Also the merchant can have such a limit not to in order to create such a condition but to benefit his bigger customers. Rav Karelitz held practically one shouldn't do this because it is common that a buyer will come to pay and then realize that he doesn't have enough and then go back in order to reach the limit, which would be obvious that he is doing so for the loan.</ref>
	# It is forbidden for the borrower give a lender a loan during or after the original loan unless he regularly did so previously because doing so is considered a favor to the lender. This is only an issue if the second loan is larger or for a longer period of time, otherwise some poskim hold that it is permitted to give the lender such a loan.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 160:90 based on the Graz writes that for rabbinic questions of interest we follow the opinion that it is permitted to give a loan to one's lender.</ref>		# It is forbidden for the borrower give a lender a loan during or after the original loan unless he regularly did so previously because doing so is considered a favor to the lender. This is only an issue if the second loan is larger or for a longer period of time, otherwise some poskim hold that it is permitted to give the lender such a loan.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 160:90 based on the Graz writes that for rabbinic questions of interest we follow the opinion that it is permitted to give a loan to one's lender.</ref>