Drawing or Sculpting Forbidden Images: Difference between revisions

From Halachipedia
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# [https://www.sefaria.org/Ben_Ish_Hai%2C_Halachot_2nd_Year%2C_Masei.2?lang=he Ben Ish Hai, Shanah II, Parashat Masei]
# [https://www.sefaria.org/Ben_Ish_Hai%2C_Halachot_2nd_Year%2C_Masei.2?lang=he Ben Ish Hai, Shanah II, Parashat Masei]
# [https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46218&st=&pgnum=227&hilite= Chut Shani, Pesach, pp. 223-241, by Rav Nissim Kareltz, Kuntress be'Assiyat Tzurot]
# [https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46218&st=&pgnum=227&hilite= Chut Shani, Pesach, pp. 223-241, by Rav Nissim Kareltz, Kuntress be'Assiyat Tzurot]
# [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/750417/Rabbi_Michoel_Zylberman/The_Laws_of_Forbidden_Images The Laws of Forbidden Images, by Rabbi Michoel Zylberman]


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[[Category: Avoda Zara]]
[[Category: Avoda Zara]]

Revision as of 21:24, 5 March 2020

Items Related to Idolatry

Constructing and Keeping Idols

  1. In addition to the prohibition of worshipping an idol, the Torah prohibits one from even constructing an idol[1] even if one will not worship it himself[2] as a means of distancing us from performing idolatry.[3] Whether one receives Malkot for doing so is subject to debate.[4]
  2. It is similarly prohibited to construct an idol for someone else, whether it be a Jew or non-Jew who’s instructing it be made.[5]
  3. One may not even instruct another person to construct an idol for, and it even entails a punishment of Malkot.[6]
  4. Therefore, one who constructs an idol for himself receives twice Malkot.[7]
  5. All of these Issurim apply to all human beings, Jews and Non-Jews, regardless of gender.[8]
  6. If one finds an object that might be an idol (a “Tzelem,” which might be a “Pesel” / Avodah Zarah), if it is commonly worshipped in that area, he may not keep it. The status of the cross is debated in this contex.[9]

Symbols of Other Religions

  1. It is permitted to use and look at a stamp with a cross on it.[10]
  2. According to many poskim if a person is given a medallion with a cross on it as an honor it is permitted to wear it when visiting a government or Church official.[11]
  3. It is permitted to have and use a chess set even though the king piece has a cross on it.[12]
  4. It is discouraged and most probably assur to manufacture miniature crucifixes, crosses, and other items used lichvod Avodah Zarah.[13]

Non Idolatrous Images

  1. Lo Taasun Itti:[14] The Torah prohibits constructing objects that replicate Hashem's "servants" even if it is not for idolatry but rather for décor.
  2. "Servants" includes:
    1. Inhabitants of the upper abode (Mador HaElyon) - Malachei HaSharet, Ofanim, Serafim, and Chayot HaKodesh (the four faces - a human, eagle, bull, and lion),
    2. Inhabitants of the lower abode (Mador HaTachton) - sun, moon, and mazalot
    3. Humans[15]
    4. The Beit HaMikdash and its vessels
  3. The Gemara presents three limits to this prohibition, which enable one to possess such an object if not make it as well: when it's made by somebody else (a Non-Jew), when it's made of many parts,[16] and when it's made for instructional purposes. Some accept all three answers,[17] while others only accept the final answer.[18]
  4. Even if the item was made by someone else, if it protrudes, there is often an addition prohibiting component known as "Chashad" - that one is suspect of worshiping the image. Chashad applies to all images, not only those prohibited by function of Lo Ta'asun Itti.[19] Although the Gemara states that a public setting ("Rabbim") removes the concern of Chashad, the Poskim write how employing that leniency is frowned upon.[20]
  5. Drawing an image of the sun to demonstrate what happens in Maaseh Bereshit to explain pesukim in the Torah is an example of instructional purposes.[21] but sculpting a sculpture in a course to learn how is not.[22]

Angels and Other Heavenly Entities

  1. The Torah prohibits constructing replicas of angelic beings such as Malachei HaSharet, Ofanim, Serafim, and Chayot HaKodesh (the four faces - a human, eagle, bull, and lion).[23]
  2. Some argue that the prohibition not only includes constructing these entities, but possessing them, as well,[24], but others disagree.[25]
  3. The Ramban and others hold that it is prohibited to construct replicas of upper heavenly entities even if they are two-dimensional,[26] but many disagree.[27] Nevertheless, one should be strict on the matter.[28]
  4. If one finds such an object, he may benefit from it but not keep it.[29]

Sun, Moon, and Stars

  1. It is forbidden to draw a sun, moon, or stars whether the image is two dimensional or a three dimensional protruding image.[30]
  2. Numerous Rishonim argue that the limits of the prohibition are informed by our human perception of the object that one is attempting to replicate. Since we see humans in three dimensions, drawing a three dimensional human is prohibited, but a two dimensional one is not. Similarly, as we perceive celestial bodies as two dimensional, drawing even two dimensional images of the sun and moon is prohibited.[31] Some disagree,[32] but the Halacha follows the former.[33]
  3. The Rambam holds that images of the sun and moon themselves are not prohibited, but, rather, images that symbolize them are, such as the "Goddess of the Sun" and the like.[34]
  4. Although in general a partial/incomplete image is permitted to create or own,[35] since we as humans observe the moon in its various stages, images of all of its stages are prohibited to create according to some Poskim.[36] Some think that this does not apply to the sun, even though we observe a "partial" sun when it rises and sets at the horizon,[37] while others are machmir.[38]
  5. Therefore, one shouldn’t teach children to draw the sun, moon, or stars in their complete form, because when they get older it will be prohibited for them, anyway.[39]
  6. Some say that it is forbidden to create a temporary image of a sun, moon, or stars.[40]
  7. One should not bake cookies in the shape of a moon.[41]

Human Images

  1. Creating a sculpture of a human is a serious Biblical prohibition for which some say one would have to give one's life to avoid.[42]
  2. One may own a bust or head used to store a wig. [43]
  3. Some say that it is forbidden to own a full body manikin [44], while others permit but suggest that if one wants to be strict one may cut off a finger of the manikin.[45]
  4. It is forbidden to create an image of a person if it is protruding (three dimensional). That is only forbidden if it is a complete image and not a half image.[46] Some say that if the image is very accurate it is forbidden even if it is an incomplete image such as the picture of a person’s head on the side of a coin.[47]
  5. It is permitted to draw a two dimensional drawing of a person, therefore, it is permitted to take a picture of a person.[48] Some gedolim were strict upon themselves and didn't want others to take pictures of them.[49]
  6. Many poskim hold that it is permitted to buy dolls even though they are a three dimensional creation of humans. A minority of poskim hold that one should damage the doll’s image. However, to manufacture dolls is a more serious question and one should consult one’s rabbi.[50]

Animals and Plants

  1. It is permitted to create an image of animals, plants, or earth.[51]

Replications of the Vessels of the Temple

  1. The Torah prohibits one from constructing exact replicas of the Mishkan, Beit HaMikdash, and their vessels, such as the Menorah, Ulam, Shulchan, and Mizbeach.[52]
  2. According to some Rishonim, even possessing any such object is Assur Min HaTorah[53], while some Poskim disagree.[54]
  3. Drawings of these are permitted, as well.[55]
  4. The Rambam placed these Halachot in Hilchot Klei HaMikdash, not in Hilchot Avodah Zara, potentially because he saw the issur to be a function of Mora Mikdash.[56] Others suggest that it's because he includes building the vessels of the Beit HaMikdash in the grander Mitzvah of building the Beit HaMikdash itself.[57]
  5. Some also include understanding the meaning of the Torah's description of the Kelim to be justification to construct replicas. Therefore, a miniature Beit HaMikdash or Mishkan model would be permissible to construct.[58]
  6. Ultimately, any deviation that would render a vessel invalid for Mikdash purposes renders it permissible to be construct outside of the Mikdash. [59]
  7. It’s forbidden to make a menorah of seven branches even of other metals besides gold, even if it’s not 18 Tefachim tall, and even without the appropriate designs such as the flowers and bolts of the menorah.[60] However, it’s permissible to make it out of wood or non-metals.[61] Having curved as opposed to straight branches does not make it permissible.[62]
  8. If one ends up in possession of a seven branch menorah, he should remove or add a branch.[63] If there is no trunk and just seven branches coming out of a flat base, the prohibition does not apply, especially if they're not all in a straight row.[64]
  9. Many poskim permit a seven branch electrical menorah, because the variation of electric bulbs as opposed to cup of oil with wicks is significant enough to avoid the issur. On this basis, many Poskim allow a shul to keep such a Menorah if they end up in position of it.[65]
  10. Making a model to demonstrate what the Torah is referring to (i.e. educational purposes) is permissible.[66]

Further Reading

  1. Ben Ish Hai, Shanah II, Parashat Masei
  2. Chut Shani, Pesach, pp. 223-241, by Rav Nissim Kareltz, Kuntress be'Assiyat Tzurot
  3. The Laws of Forbidden Images, by Rabbi Michoel Zylberman

Sources

  1. Shemot 20:4
  2. Rambam Sefer HaMitzvot (Lo Taaseh 2), Mishneh Torah Hilchot Avodah Zarah 3:9. Note the different versions of translations in the former.
  3. Chinuch 27
  4. The Rambam ibid writes that one does get Malkot, but the Raavad argues it’s a lav shebechlalot.
  5. Rambam Sefer HaMitzvot (Lo Taaseh 3), Mishneh Torah Hilchot Avodah Zarah 3:10
  6. Rambam Sefer HaMitzvot (Lo Taaseh 2), Mishneh Torah (Hilchot Avodah Zarah 3:9). The Chinuch 27 is stunned that the Rambam considers asking someone else to construct an idol to be subject to Malkot, as it’s seemingly a Lav She’ein Bo Maaseh and Ein Shaliach leDvar Averah. The Lechem Mishneh (ad loc.) writes that since a Maaseh is being done on his behalf, this is considered like Shelichut, but the Minchat Chinuch (ad loc.) rejects that interpretation in favor of deeming this a Gezerat HaKatuv, not actual Shelichut. Both Rav Moshe Feinstein (Iggerot Moshe Yoreh Deah 2:55) and Rav Shlomo Wahrman (She’erit Yosef vol. 3 pg. 385) dismiss the above answers in favor of a closer read of the Rambam. To them, the Rambam is saying that there are two issurim, constructing an idol, and keeping and idol. The act of placing the idol in one’s domain is the Maaseh required to violate the Averah and be liable for Malkot.
  7. Rambam ibid, Chinuch 214
  8. Chinuch 27, Minchat Chinuch 27:7 and 39:12
  9. Avodah Zarah 40b, Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 141:1), Shach (Yoreh Deah 141:4)
  10. Igrot Moshe YD 1:69 writes that it isn't considered a violation of Al Tifnu El Haelilim to use a stamp with a cross on it. His reasons are: 1) Since the images are just used for decorations and not actually for religious purposes it is permitted to look at them (Tosfot Shabbat 149). 2) Since it is used all the time a person is used to that symbol (Tosfot Avoda Zara 50). 3) It isn't an deity it is just a symbol to remind them of their deity. 4) Since the stamps are disgraced by being marked up and also being thrown out that isn't considered something a person would worship.
  11. Rav Ovadia in Yechava Daat 3:65 permits wearing a medallion with a cross on it that was given to a person as an honor. He begins with the Rama YD 141:1 who writes that crosses are permitted in benefit since they're not avoda zara themselves. Although the Shach limits this to a case where you knew it wasn't worshiped but in general you have to assume that they were worshiped Rav Ovadia says that the Shach's concern doesn't apply to medallions. He also cites the Zera Emet 2:45 and Rav Chaim Palagi in Lev Chaim 3:100 who say that a jewelry with a cross isn't usually worshiped and can be worn if necessary.
  12. Rav Asher Bush in Shoel Bshlomo 1:60:2. His proofs are:
    1. Tosfot A"z 50 and Shabbat 149 by using coins with religious symbols on them say that they are muter since they are for decorative purposes and they are used all the time. Igrot Moshe YD 1:69 cites these Tosfots.
    2. He also cites Rav Ovadia in Yechava Daat 3:65 who permits wearing a medallion with a cross on it for the same reasons. He has many proofs but for one the Rama YD 141:1 who says crosses are muter bhanah if they weren't worshiped since they're not a"z themselves. Although the Shach 141:6 says you have to assume that they were worshiped but Rav Ovadia quotes the Zera Emet 2:45 who says that doesn't apply to medallions.
    3. He lastly cites Ritva A"Z 42b that crosses on cups are for decorative purposes and are permitted.
  13. See Ben Ish Chai (Shanah II, Masei 7), the exchange between Rav Ezra Hedaya and Rav Ben Tzion Meir Chai Uziel recorded in Nachalat Ezra (vol. 1 Yoreh Deah 2) and Mishpetei Uziel 2:17), Binyan Av 1:37, and Kovetz Teshuvot 3:120
  14. Shemot 20:20, Avodah Zarah 43ab, Rosh HaShanah 24b, Rambam (Sefer HaMitzvot, Lo Taaseh 4), Sefer HaChinuch 39, Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah
  15. The Sefer HaChinuch 39 explains that this is because only Hashem can create Man and instill intellect into him.
  16. the Ritva (Avodah Zarah 43b) surmises that one can even make it himself if it's in many parts, but he concludes stringently. Minchat Chinuch 39:2 opines that this is a standalone answer and it's permissible for one to even put the pieces together himself, most probably because they don't fit together so tightly.
  17. Rosh, Ran (Avodah Zarah 43b), Rama (Yoreh Deah 141:4)
  18. The Rif only quotes the final answer of Lehitlamed/Lehavin ul'horot (instructional purposes). Although the Rambam (Hilchot Avodah Zarah 3:11) omits all three of them, which leave the Kesef Mishneh confused. The Ran understands that he accepts the final one, but the Minchat Chinuch 39:2 thinks it's obvious that the Rambam accepts all three. Ultimately, Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 141:4) rules only like the lehitlamed answer, but the Rama fills the other two back in.
  19. Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 141:5)
  20. Rabbeinu Yerucham quoted in Bedek HaBayit (Yoreh Deah 141:4), Shach (Yoreh Deah 141:27)
  21. Shevet HaLevi 7:134:8, Iggerot Moshe yd 3:33, Halichot olam vol 7 pg. ???
  22. Chatam Sofer Yoreh Deah 128, Pitchei Teshuvah (Yoreh Deah 141:8*). That's learning to make (Lilmod Laasot). Although, leaving the last few parts for someone else to finish might be permissible
  23. See Tosafot 43b the other Rishonim ad loc, Minchat Chinuch 39:3, and Iggerot Moshe (Yoreh Deah 2:55) at length regarding the overlap between Chayot and humans.
  24. Ran (Avodah Zarah 43b)
  25. Tur (Yoreh Deah 141) as explained by Beit Yosef
  26. Ramban, Rashba, Ritva (Avodah Zarah 43b and Rosh HaShanah 24b)
  27. Tosafot, Tur, Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 141:4)
  28. Taz (Yoreh Deah 141:12), Nehar Mitzrayim (Avodah Zarah 5)
  29. Rama (Yoreh Deah 141:4), Shach (Yoreh Deah 141:24)
  30. The opinion of Tosfot Avoda Zara 43b s.v. veha citing Rabbenu Tam, Ri, and Riva is that the sun, moon, and stars may not be drawn even if they’re not protruding. Rosh A"z 3:5 and Rambam Avoda Zara 3:11 agree. Although the Ramban and his Talmidim argue that two dimensional images should be permitted in this case, the Shulchan Aruch YD 141:4 follows the opinion of the Rambam and Rosh. Chachmat Adam 85:5, Igrot Moshe OC 5:9:6, Halichot Olam (vol 7 pg 287), and Rabbi Mansour on Dailyhalacha.com concur with Shulchan Aruch. Taz 141:13 suggests that a two dimensional drawing of the sun is permitted.
    • Ran a”z 19a quotes some who think that if it isn’t protruding it isn’t Biblical prohibition for any forbidden image. The Tzitz Eliezer 9:44:2 writes that some rishonim hold that it is permitted if it isn’t protruding and he writes that one should look in the Ramban, Ritva, and Meiri on A”z 43b.
    • Rav Chaim Palagi in Ruach Chaim YD 141:2 asks how were they allowed to have a picture of the sun on the tombstone of Yehoshua like Rashi Yehoshua 24:30 writes? Tzitz Eliezer 9:44 offers the following answers:
    1. It wasn't protruding, so according to the Rishonim who permit an etched in sun, it was ok.
    2. Others made it and this in public
    3. The effect of causing agony of the loss of such a special person is lilmod, just like Rav Chaim Palagi writes about image of Avraham Avinu as a symbol of monotheism - they were lax in Yehoshua's hesped, so this was a teshuvah.
    4. The Rambam writes that only the symbolism of the sun is prohibited, not a circle.
    5. There were no solar rays included.
    6. It was a piece of pottery (he was buried in Timnat Cheres, where the sun (symbolized by pottery/cheres) was worshipped), not an actual sun.
  31. Rabbeinu Tam, Ri, and Riva quoted by Tosafot (Rosh HaShanah 24b, Avodah Zarah 43b), Rosh (Avodah Zarah 3:5), Mordechai (Avodah Zarah 839), Ritva (Rosh Hashanah 24b), Rambam (Hilchot Avodah Zarah 3:11)
  32. Ramban, Raavad (Hilchot Avodah Zarah 3:11), Rashba (Rosh Hashanah 24b), Ran (Avodah Zarah)
  33. Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 141:4)
  34. Rambam (Perush HaMishnah Avodah Zarah 3:3, quoted by Rama (Yoreh Deah 141:4) lehalacha, but the Shach (Yoreh Deah 141:8) and GRA (Yoreh Deah 141:7) take up arms that the Rambam's shitah is quite difficult in light of the sugya.
  35. Shach Yoreh Deah 141:25 writes that any of the pictures that are forbidden to draw are only forbidden if they are done completely but not if you only draw a part of it.
  36. Minchat Chinuch 39:9. Darkei Teshuva 141:38 cites a dispute between the Alsheich (teshuva 77) and Maharit YD 35 whether drawing a part of the moon is permitted, the Alsheich is lenient while the Maharit is strict. Finally he added the Shoel Umeishiv 3:71 and Amudei Esh 16:2 who are strict. See Halichot Olam (vol. 7 pg 286) who quote some who said the Alsheich said the opposite.
  37. Shevet HaLevi (vo. 7 Siman 134:7
  38. Minchat Yitzchak 10:72, Yabia Omer (vol. 10 Yoreh Deah 58:6, pg 372), Halichot Olam (vol. 7 pg 286)
  39. Igrot Moshe OC 5:9:6 writes that once a child reached the age of chinuch they should be taught not to draw a picture of a sun, moon, or star. If their drawing is so inaccurate that most adults couldn’t tell what it was then it is permitted but still an adult shouldn’t teach children to draw that because they will grow up thinking that it is permitted and do so when their drawing skills improve. Star-K writes that perhaps making a cake in the shape of a sun (circle with cookie sticks as rays) is permitted since it isn't an accurate representation.
  40. Minchat Yitzchak 10:72 writes that it is forbidden to temporarily create the image of a sun or moon since it is considered an asiya (creation). See however Darkei Teshuva 141:27.
  41. Shevet HaLevi 7:134:10, Avnei Derech 9:106
  42. Kol Mevaser 1:14 writes that creating a protruding image of a human is a Biblical prohibition of Lo Tasun Itti which is a detail of Avoda Zara. Therefore, he writes that one should give up one's life to avoid violating that prohibition. He cites the Minchat Chinuch 39. He also cites a story in Josephus (Antiques of the Jew v. 18 ch. 3 n. 1) about a town that opposed the Cesar's decree to put up flags with his image on them and were killed because of that.
  43. Rabbi Mansour on Dailyhalacha.com
  44. Rabbi Mansour on Dailyhalacha.com
  45. Az Nidabru 8:59 writes that it is permitted to own a store manikin which is used to show how certain clothing looks on a person. He bases his ruling on the logic of the Chachmat Adam 85:6 who writes that nowadays there's no suspicion that people worship a human image and also that the manikin is meant to be viewed by the public. He adds that if one wants to be strict one one can avoid all issues by cutting off a finger.
  46. The Rosh Avoda Zara 3:5 rules that it is only forbidden to create a protruding picture of a person if it is a complete person and not just the head or just the body without the head. However, the Smag (Lavin 22) argues that even part of a person is forbidden as there’s no proof to be lenient. Shulchan Aruch YD 141:7 accepts the Rosh. Yachava Daat 3:64 accepts Shulchan Aruch. The Maharit YD 35 argues that we should follow the Smag and brings a proof from Tosfot Yoma 54b. Perisha 141:37 and Taz 141:15 cite the Smag.
  47. Yavetz 170 cited by Pitchei Teshuva YD 141:10
  48. The Ramban Avoda Zarra 43b s.v. dakshinan holds that it is forbidden to draw a two dimensional image of a person. However, the Rambam Avoda Zara 3:11 holds that it is only forbidden if it is three dimensional. That is also the opinion of the Rosh Avoda Zara 3:5. Shulchan Aruch 141:5 codifies the opinion of the Rambam.
  49. The Yavetz 1:170 writes that his father opposed anyone drawing a picture of him.
  50. Yachava Daat 3:64 writes that it is permitted to buy a doll. He cites other poskim who agree with this leniency including the Nachal Eshkol 3:50, Maharit YD 35, Pri Hasadeh 3:38, and Netsiv (Emek Shaylah 57:3). Yachava Daat himself extends the leniency to even producing dolls based on the Maharit but the others who were lenient weren't that lenient.[http://www.dailyhalacha.com/Display.asp?ClipDate=10/5/2010 Rabbi Mansour on Dailyhalacha.com agrees. However, Teshuvot Vhanhagot 1:804 writes that it is permitted to have dolls but a God fearing person would damage the image of the doll. He quotes the Chazon Ish as having said so. He says it is sufficient to break off the ear or somewhere that would be immediately noticeable. Shevet Halevi 7:134:1 writes that one shouldn't have a doll of a human and therefore one needs to break part of the face of the doll.
  51. Abaye on Avoda Zara 43b, Tosfot Yoma 53b, Rambam Avoda Zara 3:11, Shulchan Aruch YD 141:6
  52. Shemot 22:19, Avodah Zarah 43a, Rosh Hashana 24a, Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 141:8). Rav Moshe Feinstein (Iggerot Moshe Yoreh Deah 3:33) notes how the measurements of all versions of the Mishkan and Beit HaMikdash are included. Halichot Olam vol. 7 pg 288
  53. Rashba as quoted by the Ritva (Rosh HaShanah 24b and Avodah Zarah 43b) and Ran (Avodah Zarah 43b).
  54. Pitchei Teshuvah (Yoreh Deah 141:12)
  55. Ritva Avodah Zarah 43 and Rosh Hashanah 24a
  56. Minchat Chinuch 39:1
  57. Rambam Sefer HaMitzvot (Aseh 20), Shevet HaLevi 3:106
  58. Halichot Olam vol. 7 pg 288. Rav Ovadia
  59. Ritva Avodah zarah 43 and Rosh Hashanah 24a
  60. Avodah Zarah 43a, Rosh HaShanah 24a, Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 141:8)
  61. Shach (Yoreh Deah 141:35
  62. Bechor Shor quoted in Pitchei Teshuvah (Yoreh Deah 141:14)
  63. Shiurei Beracha (Yoreh Deah 141:8)
  64. Mishpetei Uziel 2:18, Shevet HaLevi 10:129
  65. Rav Ben Tzion Meir Chai Uziel (Misheptei Uziel 2:18) and Rav Ovadia Yosef (Yabia Omer vol. 2 Orach Chaim 12, Yechaveh Daat 3:61 and 7:142, Halichot Olam vol. 7 pg 288 ) were lenient because it's significantly different from the Menorah in the Mikdash, the plus it's made by other people, even though the Shoel Meshiv thinks that a shinui in nerot isn't me'akev to be posel. Also, when used as a decoration in shul, the good intentions of wanting to adorn the miniature House of Hashem and the lack of intention to copy the Mikdash are additional reasons to be lenient. Yaskil Avdi (vol. 7 Yoreh Deah 16) quotes Rav Herzog who thought that the lack of beit kibbul is enough to be mattir, but he recommends one be strict since it's a Torah level prohibition. Yesodei Yeshurun R' Gedalia Felder vol. 1 page 47 (Maarechet Beit HaKnesset #31) quotes the Machloket. Rav Schachter (oral communication) recommends staying away. See also Rabbi Eli Mansour' Daily Halacha on iTorah
  66. Iggerot Moshe (Yoreh Deah 3:33)