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Milk and Meat in the Kitchen: Difference between revisions

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Milk and Meat in the Kitchen (view source)

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==Food that was on the Table==
==Food that was on the Table==
# Sliced bread that was on the table during a meat meal should be treated as meat and can't be eaten with milk since meat residue may have touched it.<ref>Yerushalmi Pesachim 6:4, Shulchan Aruch YD 91:3. Igrot Moshe YD 1:38 holds that the actual prohibition of eating bread from a meat meal with dairy only applies to the bread which was eaten with meat or sliced pieces that were intended to be eaten. Still it is preferable not to eat with dairy any of the bread that was on the table during the meat meal. Badei Hashulchan 89:98 and The Laws of Kashrut (p. 212) adopt the opinion of the Igrot Moshe.</ref> Some question how it is permitted to save that bread for another meat meal since one might forget and eat it with milk. However, the minhag is to save the cut up bread on the table to save that bread for another meat meal.<ref>Badei Hashulchan 91:17 quotes this minhag and questions it. </ref>
# Sliced bread that was on the table during a meat meal should be treated as meat and can't be eaten with milk since meat residue may have touched it.<ref>Yerushalmi Pesachim 6:4, Shulchan Aruch YD 91:3. Igrot Moshe YD 1:38 holds that the actual prohibition of eating bread from a meat meal with dairy only applies to the bread which was eaten with meat or sliced pieces that were intended to be eaten. Still it is preferable not to eat with dairy any of the bread that was on the table during the meat meal. Badei Hashulchan 89:98 and The Laws of Kashrut (p. 212) adopt the opinion of the Igrot Moshe.</ref> Some question how it is permitted to save that bread for another meat meal since one might forget and eat it with milk. However, the minhag is to save the cut up bread on the table to save that bread for another meat meal.<ref>Badei Hashulchan 91:17 quotes this minhag and questions it. </ref>
==Kashrut of Ovens for Meat and Milk==
# To avoid all issues one should choose the primary use of the oven for meat or milk and then cover the other type. For example, if he chooses that it be used as a meat oven, the meat foods can be cooked in there uncovered. The dairy dishes with liquid should be covered, however, the dry dairy dishes can be cooked uncovered. Also, if within 24 hours of cooking a meat dish with liquid one wants to cook a dairy dish with liquid one should wait until after 24 hours even if it is covered.<ref>The Badei Hashulchan 92:183 presents this set of laws to prevent any prohibition. However, in cases of mistakes one should ask his rabbi. The following is a summary of halachic discussion on this topic:
* Mishna Machshirin 2:2 says that steam is considered liquid to cause a fruit that came in contact with steam is considered susceptible to impurity since it came in contact with liquid. The Rosh (responsa 20:26) infers from this mishna that steam has the same status as the actual food where it came from. Therefore, he writes that if there’s a milk pot cooking below a meat pot the meat pot is forbidden because the steam is considered like hot milk. The Trumat Hadeshen (responsa 103) agrees but stipulates that it is only an issue if the steam reached the temperature of yad soledet bo. Therefore, it is permitted to cook a pot of milk food beneath hanging meat, such as salami, if the meat is far away and the steam won’t be yad soledet bo once it reaches the meat. Shulchan Aruch 92:8 codifies the opinion of the Rosh, while the Rama quotes the Trumat Hadeshen.
* Because of a concern of steam coming from an uncovered pot of food in an oven, some poskim forbid using one oven for meat and milk even not at the same time. Rav Moshe Feinstein in Igrot Moshe 1:40 writes that there is an issue. See what he writes regarding after the fact. He rejects 3 concerns that could be used to argue that it is permitted.
* (1) Perhaps since the oven is large the steam doesn’t get absorbed into the walls just like the Trumat Hadeshen said that steam that’s less than yad soledet bo isn’t absorbed. Rav Moshe argues that even if the steam weren’t yad soledet bo nonetheless they would be absorbed into the ceiling of the oven since it is very hot and heats up the steam upon touch.
* (2) Rav Moshe holds that a vent in the walls doesn’t allow all of the steam to exit.
* (3) Lastly, Rav Moshe doesn’t think that the steam was burned up before it was absorbed into the walls since we only can be sure that a drop of liquid is burnt up right near the fire (see Shulchan Aruch 92:6).
* Rav Ben Tzion Wosner (Or Yisrael 5763 year 8 no. 4:34 pp. 92-102), son of Rav Shmuel Wosner, writes that ovens aren’t an issue of steam because since the walls are so hot they burn up the steam before it is absorbed. This concept can be found in the Maharsham 3:208 though that isn’t his conclusion. Yavetz (1:93) is lenient and is adamant about this issue.
* Minchat Yitzchak 5:20 and Chelkat Yakov 2:136 are strict.
* Concerning dry dishes the Pri Megadim (seder v’hanahagot hashoel im hanishal b’isur v’heter seder 2 no. 37) says that zeiya is only an issur from liquids and not dry foods. Rav Moshe in Igrot Moshe YD 1:40 says that there is an issue of steam from dry foods if you can see it, otherwise you don’t need to assume that there is steam from dry dishes.</ref>
# According to Sephardim, many Poskim rule that nowadays a person should have separate ovens for [[cooking]] meat and for [[cooking]] milk.<ref> Rabbi Mansour says this lechatchila at dailyhalacha.com. [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=491] This is also the opinion of R' Shmuel Pinchasi quoted at dailyhalacha.com. [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=645] </ref> In cases where this is difficult, one can be lenient to use one oven so long as one covers all food placed in the oven. Alternatively, if one cooks a solid food in the oven over 24 hours apart from of the opposite type and one also preheated it for 20 minutes.<ref>Yabia Omer 5:7:8. Rav Moshe Feinstein in Iggerot Moshe Y"D 1:40. Chacham Ovadia Yosef quoted by Rabbi Mansour [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=491&txtSearch=separate%20ovens] writes that bedieved if one didn't wait 24 hours before cooking the opposite type of food, the food would nevertheless be permissible. However, R' Ovadia states that ideally one should wait 24 hours between cooking the two foods and that one should first let the oven run for 15 minutes before placing the second food into the oven. </ref> After the fact, one may be lenient.<ref>Yabia Omer YD 5:7:8. His reasons for being lenient include: zeyia is only rabbinic, it is a dispute, it might not come out into the new food, it might be burnt up, and it have dissipated through a vent. He is lenient after the fact even within 24 hours even on liquids cooked one after another. </ref>
## According to some, if the foods are dry foods that don't produce vapors, then one may place the foods in the oven one after the other (but not at the same time).<ref>Rav Moshe Feinstein in Iggerot Moshe Y"D 1:40. Rav Ovadia Yosef in Yabia Omer 5:7:8 writes that those who follow this opinion have what to rely upon though he recommends being stricter. </ref> Others rule that one should wait 24 hours between cooking the foods and that one should first let the oven run for 15 minutes before placing the second food into the oven.<ref>Chacham Ovadia Yosef quoted by Rabbi Mansour at dailyhalacha.com. [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=491] </ref> 
# In a case where someone has only one oven, he does not need to have separate oven grates for meat and milk.<ref>Rav Moshe Feinstein in Iggerot Moshe Y"D 1:40. </ref>
===Reyacha===
# If one cooked open meat simultaneously with open bread in the oven at a temperature above Yad Soledet Bo one shouldn't eat the bread with dairy.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 97:3, Shach 108:2</ref>


==Stovetops==
==Stovetops==
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# If a hot piece of meat is cut with a cold dairy knife if the knife was used for dairy within 24 hours the amount of a "peel" needs to be removed from the meat. If it wasn't used within 24 hours the meat is kosher. The knife in either case needs to be cleaned off but not koshered.<ref>Rama Y.D. 94:7</ref> However, many poskim hold that the meat is completely not kosher and the knife needs to be koshered.<ref>Badei Hashulchan 94:101 cites the achronim who argue with the Rama including the Maharshal and sides with him unless there is a case of great loss. That is also the view of the Aruch Hashulchan.</ref>
# If a hot piece of meat is cut with a cold dairy knife if the knife was used for dairy within 24 hours the amount of a "peel" needs to be removed from the meat. If it wasn't used within 24 hours the meat is kosher. The knife in either case needs to be cleaned off but not koshered.<ref>Rama Y.D. 94:7</ref> However, many poskim hold that the meat is completely not kosher and the knife needs to be koshered.<ref>Badei Hashulchan 94:101 cites the achronim who argue with the Rama including the Maharshal and sides with him unless there is a case of great loss. That is also the view of the Aruch Hashulchan.</ref>
# This applies even if the meat isn't yad soledet bo as long as it is hot.<Ref>Badei Hashulchan 94:100 based on Tosfot and Rosh on Chullin 8a. Gra explains that this Rama is based on Chullin that with duchka dsakina a kli sheni is boleh a klipah.</ref>
# This applies even if the meat isn't yad soledet bo as long as it is hot.<Ref>Badei Hashulchan 94:100 based on Tosfot and Rosh on Chullin 8a. Gra explains that this Rama is based on Chullin that with duchka dsakina a kli sheni is boleh a klipah.</ref>
==Kashrut of Ovens for Meat and Milk==
# To avoid all issues one should choose the primary use of the oven for meat or milk and then cover the other type. For example, if he chooses that it be used as a meat oven, the meat foods can be cooked in there uncovered. The dairy dishes with liquid should be covered, however, the dry dairy dishes can be cooked uncovered. Also, if within 24 hours of cooking a meat dish with liquid one wants to cook a dairy dish with liquid one should wait until after 24 hours even if it is covered.<ref>The Badei Hashulchan 92:183 presents this set of laws to prevent any prohibition. However, in cases of mistakes one should ask his rabbi. The following is a summary of halachic discussion on this topic:
* Mishna Machshirin 2:2 says that steam is considered liquid to cause a fruit that came in contact with steam is considered susceptible to impurity since it came in contact with liquid. The Rosh (responsa 20:26) infers from this mishna that steam has the same status as the actual food where it came from. Therefore, he writes that if there’s a milk pot cooking below a meat pot the meat pot is forbidden because the steam is considered like hot milk. The Trumat Hadeshen (responsa 103) agrees but stipulates that it is only an issue if the steam reached the temperature of yad soledet bo. Therefore, it is permitted to cook a pot of milk food beneath hanging meat, such as salami, if the meat is far away and the steam won’t be yad soledet bo once it reaches the meat. Shulchan Aruch 92:8 codifies the opinion of the Rosh, while the Rama quotes the Trumat Hadeshen.
* Because of a concern of steam coming from an uncovered pot of food in an oven, some poskim forbid using one oven for meat and milk even not at the same time. Rav Moshe Feinstein in Igrot Moshe 1:40 writes that there is an issue. See what he writes regarding after the fact. He rejects 3 concerns that could be used to argue that it is permitted.
* (1) Perhaps since the oven is large the steam doesn’t get absorbed into the walls just like the Trumat Hadeshen said that steam that’s less than yad soledet bo isn’t absorbed. Rav Moshe argues that even if the steam weren’t yad soledet bo nonetheless they would be absorbed into the ceiling of the oven since it is very hot and heats up the steam upon touch.
* (2) Rav Moshe holds that a vent in the walls doesn’t allow all of the steam to exit.
* (3) Lastly, Rav Moshe doesn’t think that the steam was burned up before it was absorbed into the walls since we only can be sure that a drop of liquid is burnt up right near the fire (see Shulchan Aruch 92:6).
* Rav Ben Tzion Wosner (Or Yisrael 5763 year 8 no. 4:34 pp. 92-102), son of Rav Shmuel Wosner, writes that ovens aren’t an issue of steam because since the walls are so hot they burn up the steam before it is absorbed. This concept can be found in the Maharsham 3:208 though that isn’t his conclusion. Yavetz (1:93) is lenient and is adamant about this issue.
* Minchat Yitzchak 5:20 and Chelkat Yakov 2:136 are strict.
* Concerning dry dishes the Pri Megadim (seder v’hanahagot hashoel im hanishal b’isur v’heter seder 2 no. 37) says that zeiya is only an issur from liquids and not dry foods. Rav Moshe in Igrot Moshe YD 1:40 says that there is an issue of steam from dry foods if you can see it, otherwise you don’t need to assume that there is steam from dry dishes.</ref>
# According to Sephardim, many Poskim rule that nowadays a person should have separate ovens for [[cooking]] meat and for [[cooking]] milk.<ref> Rabbi Mansour says this lechatchila at dailyhalacha.com. [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=491] This is also the opinion of R' Shmuel Pinchasi quoted at dailyhalacha.com. [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=645] </ref> In cases where this is difficult, one can be lenient to use one oven so long as one covers all food placed in the oven. Alternatively, if one cooks a solid food in the oven over 24 hours apart from of the opposite type and one also preheated it for 20 minutes.<ref>Yabia Omer 5:7:8. Rav Moshe Feinstein in Iggerot Moshe Y"D 1:40. Chacham Ovadia Yosef quoted by Rabbi Mansour [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=491&txtSearch=separate%20ovens] writes that bedieved if one didn't wait 24 hours before cooking the opposite type of food, the food would nevertheless be permissible. However, R' Ovadia states that ideally one should wait 24 hours between cooking the two foods and that one should first let the oven run for 15 minutes before placing the second food into the oven. </ref> After the fact, one may be lenient.<ref>Yabia Omer YD 5:7:8. His reasons for being lenient include: zeyia is only rabbinic, it is a dispute, it might not come out into the new food, it might be burnt up, and it have dissipated through a vent. He is lenient after the fact even within 24 hours even on liquids cooked one after another. </ref>
## According to some, if the foods are dry foods that don't produce vapors, then one may place the foods in the oven one after the other (but not at the same time).<ref>Rav Moshe Feinstein in Iggerot Moshe Y"D 1:40. Rav Ovadia Yosef in Yabia Omer 5:7:8 writes that those who follow this opinion have what to rely upon though he recommends being stricter. </ref> Others rule that one should wait 24 hours between cooking the foods and that one should first let the oven run for 15 minutes before placing the second food into the oven.<ref>Chacham Ovadia Yosef quoted by Rabbi Mansour at dailyhalacha.com. [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=491] </ref> 
# In a case where someone has only one oven, he does not need to have separate oven grates for meat and milk.<ref>Rav Moshe Feinstein in Iggerot Moshe Y"D 1:40. </ref>
===Reyacha===
# If one cooks two foods in the oven at the same time there is a smell (reycha) that is transferred from one food to the other. After the fact the food is permitted.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 108:1</ref>
# There are some instances where it is possible for reycha to forbid food even after the fact according to Ashkenazim:
## If the oven is small and completely sealed reycha forbids the food even after the fact.
## If one of the foods is a Dvar Charif then reycha can forbid the food even after the fact.
## If the prohibition under consideration is forbidden in any amount, such as Chametz, reycha can forbid the food even after the fact.<ref>Rama Y.D. 108:1</ref>
====How to Prevent Reycha====
# There is no reycha when foods are cooked one after another.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 108:1</ref>
# If the oven is large enough to hold 12 isaron of bread and has a large vent there is no reycha. The poskim assume that our ovens today do not have that requisite size.<ref>Horah Brurah 108</ref>
# If one or both of the foods were in pots with walls those walls separate between them and prevent reycha from transferring from one to the other.<ref>Bet Yosef 108:2, Shach 108:16, Horah Brurah 108:26</ref>
====Reycha for Parve====
# '''Bread:''' If one cooked open meat simultaneously with open bread in the oven at a temperature above Yad Soledet Bo one shouldn't eat the bread with dairy.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 97:3, Shach 108:2</ref>


==Microwave for Meat and Milk==
==Microwave for Meat and Milk==
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