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Milk and Meat in the Kitchen: Difference between revisions
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→Kashrut of Ovens for Meat and Milk
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* (2) Rav Moshe holds that a vent in the walls doesn’t allow all of the steam to exit. | * (2) Rav Moshe holds that a vent in the walls doesn’t allow all of the steam to exit. | ||
* (3) Lastly, Rav Moshe doesn’t think that the steam was burned up before it was absorbed into the walls since we only can be sure that a drop of liquid is burnt up right near the fire (see Shulchan Aruch 92:6). | * (3) Lastly, Rav Moshe doesn’t think that the steam was burned up before it was absorbed into the walls since we only can be sure that a drop of liquid is burnt up right near the fire (see Shulchan Aruch 92:6). | ||
* Rav Ben Tzion Wosner (Or Yisrael 5763 year 8 no. 4:34 pp. 92-102), son of Rav Shmuel Wosner, writes that ovens aren’t an issue of steam because since the walls are so hot they burn up the steam before it is absorbed. This concept can be found in the Maharsham 3:208 though that isn’t his conclusion. Yavetz (1:93) is lenient and is adamant about this issue. | * Rav Ben Tzion Wosner (Or Yisrael 5763 year 8 no. 4:34 pp. 92-102), son of Rav Shmuel Wosner, writes that ovens aren’t an issue of steam because since the walls are so hot they burn up the steam before it is absorbed. This concept can be found in the Maharsham 3:208 though that isn’t his conclusion and advises being strict. Yavetz (1:93) is lenient and is adamant about this issue. | ||
* Minchat Yitzchak 5:20 and Chelkat Yakov 2:136 are strict. | * Minchat Yitzchak 5:20 and Chelkat Yakov 2:136 are strict. | ||
* Concerning dry dishes the Pri Megadim (seder v’hanahagot hashoel im hanishal b’isur v’heter seder 2 no. 37) says that zeiya is only an | * Concerning dry dishes the Pri Megadim (seder v’hanahagot hashoel im hanishal b’isur v’heter seder 2 no. 37) says that zeiya is only an issue from liquids and not dry foods. Rav Moshe in Igrot Moshe YD 1:40 says that there is an issue of steam from dry foods if you can see it, otherwise you don’t need to assume that there is steam from dry dishes. Torat Chatat 35:6 implies like the Pri Megadim. See Minchat Yakov 35:10 who is bothered because of Shulchan Aruch OC 451:15 which assumes steam even from dry dishes. He answers that it causes a transfer of a tiny bit and on pesach that is an issue, it is used many times, and when doing kashering we should do so lechatchila. </ref> | ||
# According to Sephardim, many Poskim rule that nowadays a person should have separate ovens for [[cooking]] meat and for [[cooking]] milk.<ref> Rabbi Mansour says this lechatchila at dailyhalacha.com. [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=491] This is also the opinion of R' Shmuel Pinchasi quoted at dailyhalacha.com. [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=645] </ref> In cases where this is difficult, one can be lenient to use one oven so long as one covers all food placed in the oven. Alternatively, if one cooks a solid food in the oven over 24 hours apart from of the opposite type and one also preheated it for 20 minutes.<ref>Yabia Omer 5:7:8. Rav Moshe Feinstein in Iggerot Moshe Y"D 1:40. Chacham Ovadia Yosef quoted by Rabbi Mansour [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=491&txtSearch=separate%20ovens] writes that bedieved if one didn't wait 24 hours before cooking the opposite type of food, the food would nevertheless be permissible. However, R' Ovadia states that ideally one should wait 24 hours between cooking the two foods and that one should first let the oven run for 15 minutes before placing the second food into the oven. </ref> After the fact, one may be lenient.<ref>Yabia Omer YD 5:7:8. His reasons for being lenient include: zeyia is only rabbinic ([http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=22440&st=&pgnum=17 Sh"t Peni Yehoshua 13], Yesodei Yeshurun v. 6 p. 158), it is a dispute, it might not come out into the new food, it might be burnt up, and it have dissipated through a vent. He is lenient after the fact even within 24 hours even on liquids cooked one after another. </ref> | # According to Sephardim, many Poskim rule that nowadays a person should have separate ovens for [[cooking]] meat and for [[cooking]] milk.<ref> Rabbi Mansour says this lechatchila at dailyhalacha.com. [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=491] This is also the opinion of R' Shmuel Pinchasi quoted at dailyhalacha.com. [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=645] </ref> In cases where this is difficult, one can be lenient to use one oven so long as one covers all food placed in the oven. Alternatively, if one cooks a solid food in the oven over 24 hours apart from of the opposite type and one also preheated it for 20 minutes.<ref>Yabia Omer 5:7:8. Rav Moshe Feinstein in Iggerot Moshe Y"D 1:40. Chacham Ovadia Yosef quoted by Rabbi Mansour [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=491&txtSearch=separate%20ovens] writes that bedieved if one didn't wait 24 hours before cooking the opposite type of food, the food would nevertheless be permissible. However, R' Ovadia states that ideally one should wait 24 hours between cooking the two foods and that one should first let the oven run for 15 minutes before placing the second food into the oven. </ref> After the fact, one may be lenient.<ref>Yabia Omer YD 5:7:8. His reasons for being lenient include: zeyia is only rabbinic ([http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=22440&st=&pgnum=17 Sh"t Peni Yehoshua 13], Yesodei Yeshurun v. 6 p. 158), it is a dispute, it might not come out into the new food, it might be burnt up, and it have dissipated through a vent. He is lenient after the fact even within 24 hours even on liquids cooked one after another. </ref> | ||
## According to some, if the foods are dry foods that don't produce vapors, then one may place the foods in the oven one after the other (but not at the same time).<ref>Rav Moshe Feinstein in Iggerot Moshe Y"D 1:40. Rav Ovadia Yosef in Yabia Omer 5:7:8 writes that those who follow this opinion have what to rely upon though he recommends being stricter. </ref> Others rule that one should wait 24 hours between cooking the foods and that one should first let the oven run for 15 minutes before placing the second food into the oven.<ref>Chacham Ovadia Yosef quoted by Rabbi Mansour at dailyhalacha.com. [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=491] </ref> | ## According to some, if the foods are dry foods that don't produce vapors, then one may place the foods in the oven one after the other (but not at the same time).<ref>Rav Moshe Feinstein in Iggerot Moshe Y"D 1:40. Rav Ovadia Yosef in Yabia Omer 5:7:8 writes that those who follow this opinion have what to rely upon though he recommends being stricter. </ref> Others rule that one should wait 24 hours between cooking the foods and that one should first let the oven run for 15 minutes before placing the second food into the oven.<ref>Chacham Ovadia Yosef quoted by Rabbi Mansour at dailyhalacha.com. [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=491] </ref> | ||
# In a case where someone has only one oven, he does not need to have separate oven grates for meat and milk.<ref>Rav Moshe Feinstein in Iggerot Moshe Y"D 1:40. </ref> | # In a case where someone has only one oven, he does not need to have separate oven grates for meat and milk.<ref>Rav Moshe Feinstein in Iggerot Moshe Y"D 1:40. </ref> | ||
===Zeyia=== | |||
# The primary reason that cooking in an oven could transfer taste from the food to the walls or the opposite is through the mechanism of zeyia, steam, or more accurately defined water vapor. Generally, the poskim hold that the zeyia of a food that is cooking contains the taste of the food and transfers its taste.<ref>Rosh responsa 20:26, Shulchan Aruch 92:8. The source for zeyia is either from Mashkin 5:11 (Rosh) or Chullin 98b regarding pot covers (Gra 92:39). This is against the Mishkenot Yakov who denies the concept that zeyia can transfer taste.</ref> | |||
## Some say that zeyia is only a rabbinic transfer of taste.<ref>Yabia Omer 5:7:6 suggests this based on [http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=22440&st=&pgnum=17 Sh"t Peni Yehoshua 13], Yesodei Yeshurun v. 6 p. 158</ref> However, some say it is biblical.<Ref>Horah Brurah 92:86</ref> | |||
# Some poskim hold that there is no issue of zeyia in an open area<ref>Bach Chadashot 24, Aruch Hashulchan 92:55, Yaskil Avdi 7:4</ref> but most poskim disagree.<ref>Trumat Hadeshen Ketavim Upesakim 103, Rama 92:8</ref> Therefore, it is advisable not to pour salt from a saltshaker into an open pot cooking on the fire since the zeyia from that food will get absorbed in the saltshaker. If that happens if the food is meat then the salt becomes meat and if the food was dairy then the salt becomes dairy.<ref>Horah Brurah 92:8 s.v. im is concerned that zeyia gets into the salt that is above the pot and becomes meat or dairy like the food in the pot. He says that it is an issue even if the zeyia isn't Yad Soledet Bo since there is a bit of transfer though it could be cleaned off. However, since salt or a spice can't be cleaned off it is an issue. Even though the amount transferred would be nullified it is an issue of bitul lechatchila to use that salt for milk if it was used over a meat pot.</ref> | |||
# Some poskim considered the possibility that zeyia doesn't get into a food that is itself steaming. It certainly isn't accepted but some poskim use it as a factor.<ref>Rosh 20:26 isn't sure if the zeyia of a bottom pot affects a top pot if the top pot itself is steaming. His reason is that in the laws of tumah having two hot pots doesn't transfer liquids. Aruch Hashulchan 92:55 considers this possibility. Maharsham 3:208 and Horah Brurah 92:8 s.v. hakol write that this possibility can be used as a factor in certain cases.</ref> Others disregard this idea.<ref>Bet Shlomo YD 164 disregards this idea since the Rosh rejected it.</ref> | |||
# Some poskim hold that solid foods do not have any zeyia and only liquids have zeyia.<ref> Rama in Torat Chatat 35:6 writes that foods don't have zeyia. This can be explained in two ways: (1) The Pri Megadim (seder v’hanahagot hashoel im hanishal b’isur v’heter seder 2 no. 37) says that zeiya is only an issue from liquids and not dry foods based on the laws of tumat mashkin. (2) Rav Moshe in Igrot Moshe YD 1:40 says that there is an issue of steam from dry foods if you can see it, otherwise you don’t need to assume that there is steam from dry dishes. This is implied in the language of Rama YD 108:1. | |||
* Those who hold that there's no zeyia for solid foods: Bet Meir OC 461, Masat Moshe YD 1:4, Igrot Moshe 1:40, Minchat Shlomo 2:51. Horah Brurah 92:86 agrees with Rav Moshe.</ref> Many poskim disagree.<ref>Minchat Yakov 35:10 who is bothered with the Rama's statement denying zeyia of solid foods because of Tur and Shulchan Aruch OC 451:15 which assumes steam even from dry dishes. He answers three answers: (1) zeyia of solids causes a transfer of a tiny bit and on pesach that is an issue, (2) food zeyia is minimal but if the utensils are used for zeyia frequently it adds up, (3) when doing kashering we should do so in the most ideal form and remove the small amount of zeyia from solids. Based on these Torat Chatat's answers it sounds like there is zeyia from solid foods to be concerned about lechatchila going forward. This is also the opinion of the Shoel Umeishiv 5:4, Tzur Yakov 68, Bet Shlomo YD 164, Yabia Omer 5:7:5, and Or Letzion 3:10:2. Aruch Hashulchan 92:54 writes that it doesn't depend on whether it is solid or liquid but if it is fatty. </ref> | |||
# A minority opinion holds that zeyia is burnt up in an oven<ref>Even Yikara 3:18 cited by Yabia Omer 5:7 holds that zeyia is burnt up in an oven if it has an exposed fire in the oven but not if it has a fire behind a wall (heseko mbchutz). Rav Ben Tzion Wosner (Or Yisrael 5763 year 8 no. 4:34 pp. 92-102) holds that zeyia is burnt up in an oven. Sheilat Yavetz (1:93) holds that the zeyia is burnt up in the ovens. Maharsham 3:208 applies this reason to be lenient even if the fire is behind the wall of the oven. He isn't ready to be lenient initially.</ref> but isn't accepted.<ref>Igrot Moshe 1:40, Minchat Yitzchak 5:20, Chelkat Yakov 2:136</ref> | |||
# A minority opinion holds that zeyia dissipates in an oven that has a small vent.<ref>Aruch Hashulchan 92:55 writes that there's no concern of zeyia in an open area as he proves from Mishna Machshirin 5:10. Therefore he writes that he isn't concerned for zeyia in ovens where there is a lot of airspace.</ref> | |||
# Zeyia which isn't yad soledet bo can't transfer zeyia.<ref>Trumat Hadeshen Pesakim Uketavim 103, Rama 92:8</ref> Therefore, if meat is hanging above a pot of dairy that is cooking if it is so high above the pot that the steam isn't [[Yad Soledet Bo]] there is no concern.<ref>Rama 92:8</ref> | |||
# A covered pot can't transfer zeyia.<ref>Rama 92:8</ref> | |||
===Reyacha=== | ===Reyacha=== | ||
# If one cooks two foods in the oven at the same time there is a smell (reycha) that is transferred from one food to the other. After the fact the food is permitted.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 108:1</ref> | # If one cooks two foods in the oven at the same time there is a smell (reycha) that is transferred from one food to the other. After the fact the food is permitted.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 108:1</ref> | ||
