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==Who can join a Zimmun== | ==Who can join a Zimmun== | ||
===Women=== | |||
# Women who ate with a group of men who became obligated to make a zimmun are obligated to join in their zimmun. <ref>Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 45:22</ref> | # Women who ate with a group of men who became obligated to make a zimmun are obligated to join in their zimmun. <ref>Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 45:22</ref> | ||
# Women who ate together are obligated to make a zimmun and even if their are ten woman they say the zimmun as if they were a group of three. <ref>Shulchan Aruch 199:6</ref> | # Women who ate together are obligated to make a zimmun and even if their are ten woman they say the zimmun as if they were a group of three. <ref>Shulchan Aruch 199:6</ref> | ||
===Children=== | |||
# The Ashkenazic minhag is not to include children under Bar mitzvah for zimmun<Ref>Rama 199:10, Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 45:22 </ref>, while the Sephardic minhag is to include children of age 6 who know to whom they are [[saying Birkat HaMazon]]. Some are Machmir for age 9 in general, or, at least, for Zimun BaShem <ref> | |||
====Counting a Kattan in General==== | |||
The Gemara (Berachot 47b-48a) has a series of Meymrot about being able to make a Zimun with two people and a Sefer Torah, Shabbat, or just by virtue of the fact that they're both Talmidei Chachamim HaMechadedim Zeh et Zeh Bahalacha. Then, the Gemara quotes R' Yochanan that one can be mezamen with a Kattan Poreach, and then it brings a Baraita in support of him. Afterwards, the Gemara says the Halacha does not follow any of the above dinim rather, the Halacha follows Rav Nachman that a Kattan who knows to whom we pray may be counted towards a Zimun. The Gemara continues to bring a story about how Rabbah asked young Abaye and Rava whom we daven to and how they answered correctly. | |||
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There are three basic mehalchim in the Rishonim as to how to read the Gemara, resulting in the following Shitot regarding whom we count for a Zimun. | |||
#The Rif (Berachot 35a) quotes Rav Hai Gaon who holds one may count any Kattan who knows whom we daven to, even a nine year old. R' Yonah there also holds this way. | |||
#Rabbeinu Chananel (quoted in the Rif) is of the opinion that a twelve year old, similar to a Mufla Samuch LaIsh, may be counted for a Minyan, if he knows to whom we daven. | |||
#The Rosh (Berachot 7:20) is Machmir for a Yerushalmi that one may never count anyone below the age of thirteen for a Minyan. | |||
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The Beit Yosef (199:10) adds that the Hagahot Maimoniot (Berachot 5:6), Samag (Aseh 27), and Maharik (Shoresh 49) also hold like the Rosh, and Rabbeinu Yonah testifies that many of his contemporary Chachamim acted that way. In the end, Maran, in Shulchan Aruch, paskens Kedarko, like the Rif and Rambam against the Rosh, and he explains that it's because Zimun is lesser than a Davar Shebekedushah, so it has room for a kullah. The Darkei Moshe 199:4 says their Minhag is like the Rosh. (See Yabia Omer (4:OC:9:2-3) and 1:OC:42:4 regarding the chiluk between using a Kattan for Zimun and not for Tefillah) | |||
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====A Lower Age Limit==== | |||
The Beit Yosef (199:10) discusses further if the Rif has a lower limit for ketanim. One suggestion is that no, whenever he reaches the level of knowing whom we pray to, we count him, while the Rashba (Berachot 48a) and Rivash (Siman 451) both sounds like it's a din in Chinuch. According to the latter, we can only count him from as early as six years old. The assumption is that the Rif's Lashon of age 9-10 was Lav Davka, so he's in agreement with the Rambam who says 7-8. (R' Yonah's Girsa in the Rif was 7-8) LeMaaseh, in Shulchan Aruch, Maran paskens like the Rashba. | |||
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The Magen Avraham, as quoted by the Mishnah Berurah (199:24), al atar says from 9-10, like the Lashon of the Rif. The Birkei Yosef (199:4 )says that the Be'er Heitev discusses whether the Magen Avraham meant to disagree with Maran or not, as the Magen Avraham himself writes 6 elsewhere. He says how the Peshat in the Rif is that he's not arguing with the Rambam, but since it's a Safek beDaat HaRif if he mean 9-10 davka, he's Machmir neged Maran. In Shiurei Beracha (199:2) he found the Sefer HaOrah of Rashi that says 9-10 davka beDaat Rav Hai. The Hearot Peat David validates the Chumra but points out that Rashi was just quoting the Rif word for word and makes some question of authorship. See Machatzit HaShekel who's quoted to say similarly. | |||
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The Maamar Mordechai (199:4) broadens the discussion about this comment of the Magen Avraham. Every child reaches chinuch at a different age, so the Magen Avraham was just picking one and intended for us to be Somech on what it says in Beit Yosef. He disagrees with the Chidah's reading of the Magen Avraham and thinks that it's Lefaresh and not Lachalok, and he finishes by pointing to 284:4. | |||
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The Kaf HaChaim (199:29) and Piskei Teshuvot (199:5) are Machmir for the Chidah. | |||
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In Yabia Omer (2:OC:13:11), regarding the how old a child must be for one to answer Amen to his Beracha, Rav Ovadia says that the Chidah strayed from the Kav and there's no need to be Machmir as there's no Beracha Levatala. Therefore, he paskens from six. Elsewhere (8OC 25:8) he adds a Rov that Chareidi kids know whom they're mevarech to and that one can use a Safek Sefeka if he's not sure if the kid is six. | |||
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The Ben Ish Chai (Shanah Rishonah Korach 11) says from age nine, but Rav Ovadia (Yabia Omer 9:OC 91:8:3) says Lo Dak (as is Mashma from his Lashon about Maran and the Minhag of Baghdad following Maran), unlike the Kaf HaChaim (199:29) who took it literally. It seems to be Bedaat Maran, so it would depend how you read the Magen Avraham, (like the Chidah or the Maamar Mordechai). Either way, the Ben Ish Chai recommends finding a Gadol if possible. | |||
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The Ohr Letzion (2:13:11) distinguishes between a Zimun of three and one of ten. For the former, six years old is sufficient, but one should be machmir for a Zimun bashem for nine years. Rav David Yosef (Halacha Berurah 199:13) disagrees on behalf of his father, thought I did not see a Hasaga in Rav Ovadia's Hearot on the volume (9:108). | |||
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Vezot HaBeracha (pg 132) paskens like Chacham Ben Tzion, and Rav Mordechai Eliyahu comments that he disagrees and even allows for Asarah from age six. The latter emphasizes that each Kattan Lifum Chorfeh, everybody reaches that point of understanding at a different age. The fact that Rav Mordechai Eliyahu holds from age six may be a good indication that he read the Ben Ish Chai like Rav Ovadia. | |||
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The Birkat Hashem (2:6:25) is also meikel from age six for both 3 and 10, and in Heara 90, he gives three explanations for why we should not follow the Birkei Yosef's Chumra. Firstly, the Chidah might not have meant it LeHoraah, but rather for Yechidim, as he described in Choshen Mishpat 25:6. Next, it's just not Muchrach, and, lastly, had he seen the other Rishonim and understood the Rif, he would have been Chozer Bo. | |||
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See further in Yechaveh Daat 4:13 and Yitzchak Yeranen 5:11. | |||
</ref> | |||
==Zimmun after someone already Benched== | ==Zimmun after someone already Benched== | ||
# If three people ate bread together, and one forgot to wait for Zimmun, the other two can do Zimmun with the one who already Benched. <ref> S”A 194:1 writes that if one out of three people in a Zimmun said [[Birkat HaMazon]] they can still ma`ke Zimmun to fulfill the obligation of the two and the one who said [[Birkat HaMazon]] will not fulfill his obligation because a Zimmun must be said before [[Birkat HaMazon]]. </ref> | # If three people ate bread together, and one forgot to wait for Zimmun, the other two can do Zimmun with the one who already Benched. <ref> S”A 194:1 writes that if one out of three people in a Zimmun said [[Birkat HaMazon]] they can still ma`ke Zimmun to fulfill the obligation of the two and the one who said [[Birkat HaMazon]] will not fulfill his obligation because a Zimmun must be said before [[Birkat HaMazon]]. </ref> | ||
