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Zimmun: Difference between revisions
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#Rabbeinu Chananel (quoted in the Rif) is of the opinion that a twelve year old, similar to a Mufla Samuch LaIsh, may be counted for a Minyan, if he knows to whom we daven. | #Rabbeinu Chananel (quoted in the Rif) is of the opinion that a twelve year old, similar to a Mufla Samuch LaIsh, may be counted for a Minyan, if he knows to whom we daven. | ||
#The Rosh (Berachot 7:20) is Machmir for a Yerushalmi that one may never count anyone below the age of thirteen for a Minyan. | #The Rosh (Berachot 7:20) is Machmir for a Yerushalmi that one may never count anyone below the age of thirteen for a Minyan. | ||
The Beit Yosef (199:10) adds that the Hagahot Maimoniot (Berachot 5:6), Samag (Aseh 27), and Maharik (Shoresh 49) also hold like the Rosh, and Rabbeinu Yonah testifies that many of his contemporary Chachamim acted that way. In the end, Maran, in Shulchan Aruch, paskens Kedarko, like the Rif and Rambam against the Rosh, and he explains that it's because Zimun is lesser than a Davar Shebekedushah, so it has room for a kullah. The Darkei Moshe 199:4 says their Minhag is like the Rosh. (See Yabia Omer (4:OC:9:2-3) and 1:OC:42:4 regarding the chiluk between using a Kattan for Zimun and not for Tefillah) | The Beit Yosef (199:10) adds that the Hagahot Maimoniot (Berachot 5:6), Samag (Aseh 27), and Maharik (Shoresh 49) also hold like the Rosh, and Rabbeinu Yonah testifies that many of his contemporary Chachamim acted that way. In the end, Maran, in Shulchan Aruch, paskens Kedarko, like the Rif and Rambam against the Rosh, and he explains that it's because Zimun is lesser than a Davar Shebekedushah, so it has room for a kullah. The Darkei Moshe 199:4 says their Minhag is like the Rosh. (See Yabia Omer (4:OC:9:2-3) and 1:OC:42:4 regarding the chiluk between using a Kattan for Zimun and not for Tefillah) | ||
====A Lower Age Limit==== | ====A Lower Age Limit==== | ||
The Beit Yosef (199:10) discusses further if the Rif has a lower limit for ketanim. One suggestion is that no, whenever he reaches the level of knowing whom we pray to, we count him, while the Rashba (Berachot 48a) and Rivash (Siman 451) both sounds like it's a din in Chinuch. According to the latter, we can only count him from as early as six years old. The assumption is that the Rif's Lashon of age 9-10 was Lav Davka, so he's in agreement with the Rambam who says 7-8. (R' Yonah's Girsa in the Rif was 7-8) LeMaaseh, in Shulchan Aruch, Maran paskens like the Rashba. | The Beit Yosef (199:10) discusses further if the Rif has a lower limit for ketanim. One suggestion is that no, whenever he reaches the level of knowing whom we pray to, we count him, while the Rashba (Berachot 48a) and Rivash (Siman 451) both sounds like it's a din in Chinuch. According to the latter, we can only count him from as early as six years old. The assumption is that the Rif's Lashon of age 9-10 was Lav Davka, so he's in agreement with the Rambam who says 7-8. (R' Yonah's Girsa in the Rif was 7-8) LeMaaseh, in Shulchan Aruch, Maran paskens like the Rashba. | ||
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The Ben Ish Chai (Shanah Rishonah Korach 11) says from age nine, but Rav Ovadia (Yabia Omer 9:OC 91:8:3) says Lo Dak (as is Mashma from his Lashon about Maran and the Minhag of Baghdad following Maran), unlike the Kaf HaChaim (199:29) who took it literally. It seems to be Bedaat Maran, so it would depend how you read the Magen Avraham, (like the Chidah or the Maamar Mordechai). Either way, the Ben Ish Chai recommends finding a Gadol if possible. | The Ben Ish Chai (Shanah Rishonah Korach 11) says from age nine, but Rav Ovadia (Yabia Omer 9:OC 91:8:3) says Lo Dak (as is Mashma from his Lashon about Maran and the Minhag of Baghdad following Maran), unlike the Kaf HaChaim (199:29) who took it literally. It seems to be Bedaat Maran, so it would depend how you read the Magen Avraham, (like the Chidah or the Maamar Mordechai). Either way, the Ben Ish Chai recommends finding a Gadol if possible. | ||
<br><br> | <br><br> | ||
The Ohr Letzion (2:13:11) distinguishes between a Zimun of three and one of ten. For the former, six years old is sufficient, but one should be machmir for a Zimun bashem for nine years. Rav David Yosef (Halacha Berurah 199:13) disagrees on behalf of his father, | The Ohr Letzion (2:13:11) distinguishes between a Zimun of three and one of ten. For the former, six years old is sufficient, but one should be machmir for a Zimun bashem for nine years. Rav David Yosef (Halacha Berurah 199:13) disagrees on behalf of his father, though there is no Hasaga in Rav Ovadia's Hearot on the volume (9:108). | ||
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Vezot HaBeracha (pg 132) paskens like Chacham Ben Tzion, and Rav Mordechai Eliyahu comments that he disagrees and even allows for Asarah from age six. The latter emphasizes that each Kattan Lifum Chorfeh, everybody reaches that point of understanding at a different age. The fact that Rav Mordechai Eliyahu holds from age six may be a good indication that he read the Ben Ish Chai like Rav Ovadia. | Vezot HaBeracha (pg 132) paskens like Chacham Ben Tzion, and Rav Mordechai Eliyahu comments that he disagrees and even allows for Asarah from age six. The latter emphasizes that each Kattan Lifum Chorfeh, everybody reaches that point of understanding at a different age. The fact that Rav Mordechai Eliyahu holds from age six may be a good indication that he read the Ben Ish Chai like Rav Ovadia. | ||
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</ref> | </ref> | ||
#Those who include Ketanim may do so for both a Zimun of three and a Zimun of ten<ref>The Tur (199:10) quotes a Machaloket the Rambam (5:7), who says he can be Mitztaref for both a regular Zimun and a Zimun baShem, and R' Peretz, who holds that it's only for a Zimun BaShem. The Beit Yosef adds that the latter is also the opinion of Rav Hai Gaon, Tosafot (48a DH veleit), and the Mordechai (Berachot 172) beshem Rabbeinu Tam. He explains that they holds such because Zimun is more Chamur, and he then quotes Tosafot that Rabbeinu Tam never did it himself. The Orchot Chaim (39) beshem the Raavad (Temim Deim 1) also holds this way, but because it's a kullah enabling us to be mezamen beshem, meaning a zimun of three is not relevant. The Shulchan Aruch (199:10) paskens like the Rambam. | |||
</ref> but not Panim Chadashot or Sheva Berachot.<ref>The Kaf HaChaim (199:31) quotes Poskim who say that a Kattan may not, however, count towards a Minyan or Panim Chaddashot for Sheva Berachot. This is also the ruling of Rav Mordechai Eliyahu (in his comments to Vezot HaBeracha pg. 132). See also Yalkut Yosef.</ref> | |||
#The Kattan should have have bread in order to be counted for three.<ref>The Birkat Hashem (2:6:25:90) says that to be mitztaref for three, he has to eat Pat or Mezonot, not just Yerek Mitaam Safek Sefeka. Although, for ten, Yerek is sufficient.</ref> | |||
#COntemporary Poskim agree that this does not extend including one Kattan regardless of the size of Zimun.<ref>Maran (Beit Yosef 199:10) quotes the Kol Bo (Siman 25) that there must always be a Rov Nikar of Gedolim, so a regular Zimun can have a maximum of one Kattan and a Zimun baShem can have up to three. | |||
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The Mishnah Berurah quotes the Magen Avraham (199:6) beshem the Shiltei HaGibborim (Berachot 35 1:5) that only one Kattan may be counted. In the Shaar HaTziun (199:14) he says the Magen Avraham and Birkei Yosef both say this bedaat Maran. Upon reading the Birkei Yosef (199:3), it's clear that the Chidah felt Maran actually holds like the Kol Bo, who allows one to use many Ketanim as long as there's a Rov Nikar of Gedolim. Rather, the Birkei Yosef was being Machmir for the Riaz, because many poskim sound that way. This really isn't a Shaylah for Ashkenazim. | |||
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The Kaf HaChaim (199:30), Birkat Hashem (2:6:25), Halacha Berurah (199:13), Yalkut Yosef 199:4 (199:6 in Kitzur Shulchan Aruch), and Piskei Teshuvot (199:5) peh echad say one may only use one Kattan regardless. The Birkat Hasehm quotes many Sepharadi Poskim, such as the Birkei Yosef, Erech HaShulchan (199:2), Kaf HaChaim ibid, Siddur Beit Menuchah, Chessed LeAlaphim, and Yechaved Daat 4:13. | |||
</ref> | |||
#If a Sepharadi, Ashkenazi, and Kattan (Sepharadi) eat bread together, they may make a Zimun if the Sepharadi leads. If they're ten total, with at least seven Sepharadim, they Sepharadim may make a Zimun baShem, but the Ashkenazim should answer quietly without Hashem's name in a way that no one will notice the omission.<ref>VeZot HaBeracha (pg. 132) quotes the ruling of R' Chaim Pinchas Sheinberg and Rav Mordechai Eliyahu that if a Sepharadi, Ashkenazi, and Kattan eat together, they may make a Zimun and the Sepharadi should be Mezamen. Moreover, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach holds that if they're eight Sepharadim, an Askenazi, and a Kattan, one of the Sepharadim should make a Zimun BaShem, but the Ashkenazi should answer quietly without the Shem. This is also the ruling of the Piskei Teshuvot (199:5) and it's quoted in Yalkut Yosef (Heb-Eng) al atar.</ref> | |||
#Three Ketanim who eat together may not make their own Zimun<ref>The Perishah had a Girsa in the Tur that ketanim could make their own Zimun, but the Kaf HaChaim (199:18) points out from Maamar Mordechai (199:2) and Yafeh LeLev (199:2) that the Turim printed from the times of Maran and the Bach did not have that Girsa. Neither did the Rambam or Shulchan Aruch themselves. Rav David Yosef (Halacha Berurah 199:14) says that three ketanim who eat together should not make their own Zimun.</ref> | |||
#Ashkenazi Ketanim should still answer to a Zimun that they hear according to how much they ate with those bentching.<ref>The Piskei Teshuvot (199:5) says that they should however answer as appropriate to other people's zimunim midin Chinuch with respect to how much they ate with the mevarchim.</ref> | |||
#Two women and a Ketana who eat together may make a Zimun.<ref>The Kaf HaChaim (199:21) sounds like they have to be three Gedolot. MiSevara, since the whole concept of including a Kattan is a Kullah based on it's lack of Davar Shebekedushah status, it should be fine. The Hebrew-English Yalkut Yosef in the footnotes quotes a Maayan Omer (pg 305) that says it's permissible.</ref> | |||
==Zimmun after someone already Benched== | ==Zimmun after someone already Benched== | ||
