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Zimmun: Difference between revisions
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== Who has the obligation?== | == Who has the obligation?== | ||
# It only applies when three or more people eat together. The three conditions to be considered “together” is that those who are eating 1) eat while seated, 2) sit at one table, and 3) eat simultaneously either at the beginning or the end of the meal. <ref> S”A 193:2 writes that a third person can join two that already started eating if he is “Koveh” (establishes his place) with them. Mishna Brurah 193:21 writes that if one doesn’t eat while sitting and eat at the same table one isn’t considered as being Koveh with the others. Magen Avraham 195:2 and Mishna Brurah 197:3 also include the requirement of sitting at the same table. </ref> | # It only applies when three or more people eat together. The three conditions to be considered “together” is that those who are eating 1) eat while seated, 2) sit at one table, and 3) eat simultaneously either at the beginning or the end of the meal. <ref> S”A 193:2 writes that a third person can join two that already started eating if he is “Koveh” (establishes his place) with them. Mishna Brurah 193:21 writes that if one doesn’t eat while sitting and eat at the same table one isn’t considered as being Koveh with the others. Magen Avraham 195:2 and Mishna Brurah 197:3 also include the requirement of sitting at the same table. </ref> | ||
# If two groups ate in different places in the same house and they could see from one group to another, if they have intent (when they began the meal) to join for Zimmun they may join, however, if if they didn’t have intent, then according to Sephardim they may not join for Zimmun, but according to Ashkenazim it’s a dispute whether they may join for | # If two groups ate in different places in the same house and they could see from one group to another, if they have intent (when they began the meal) to join for Zimmun they may join, however, if if they didn’t have intent, then according to Sephardim they may not join for Zimmun, but according to Ashkenazim it’s a dispute whether they may join for zimmun. <Ref>S”A 195:1, Mishna Brurah 195:6 </ref> | ||
# If three people aren’t obligated to make Zimmun as they didn’t join their meals, the three can’t do Zimmun. <ref> Rama 193:3 writes that even if three people aren’t obligated in Zimmun it’s preferable that they make Zimmun because of Berov Am Hadrat Melech, that it’s preferable to honor Hashem in multitudes. Mishna Brurah 193:23 writes that the same would apply if there are more than 3 people. However, Magen Avraham in name of many poskim that since one can’t fulfill the [[Birkat HaMazon]] for another person one is also not allowed to make a | # If three people aren’t obligated to make Zimmun as they didn’t join their meals, the three can’t do Zimmun. <ref> Rama 193:3 writes that even if three people aren’t obligated in Zimmun it’s preferable that they make Zimmun because of Berov Am Hadrat Melech, that it’s preferable to honor Hashem in multitudes. Mishna Brurah 193:23 writes that the same would apply if there are more than 3 people. However, Magen Avraham in name of many poskim that since one can’t fulfill the [[Birkat HaMazon]] for another person one is also not allowed to make a zimmun together. Mishna Brurah 193:24 concludes that the Magen Avraham is more logical. </ref> | ||
# If three ate together and were obligated in Zimmun and one forgot about Zimmun and said [[Birkat HaMazon]] then the other two can say | # If three ate together and were obligated in Zimmun and one forgot about Zimmun and said [[Birkat HaMazon]] then the other two can say zimmun with the third. <Ref>S”A 194:1 </ref>However, if one of the group answered Zimmun with another group he can’t answer another zimmun of three. <Ref>Rama 194:1 </ref> | ||
# If three ate together and one person left he could be called back and Zimmun could be said even if he’s standing by the door next to them, however he should say [[Birkat HaMazon]] where he ate. However, if ten people ate together and one left he should be called back and everyone should sit down for Zimmun. <Ref>S”A 194:2, Mishna Brurah 194:8 </ref> | # If three ate together and one person left he could be called back and Zimmun could be said even if he’s standing by the door next to them, however he should say [[Birkat HaMazon]] where he ate. However, if ten people ate together and one left he should be called back and everyone should sit down for Zimmun. <Ref>S”A 194:2, Mishna Brurah 194:8 </ref> | ||
# If in a school or yeshiva, the students go to lunch at the same time, the group can make Zimmun together even if they sit at separate tables as long as they can see from one table to another. Even if they don’t have enough at each table to make their own Zimmun of ten, they can join together to make a Zimmun of ten. However, it’s preferable that they one time actual say verbally that they intend to eat together. <ref> Yalkut Yosef (vol 3 pg 375) </ref> | # If in a school or yeshiva, the students go to lunch at the same time, the group can make Zimmun together even if they sit at separate tables as long as they can see from one table to another. Even if they don’t have enough at each table to make their own Zimmun of ten, they can join together to make a Zimmun of ten. However, it’s preferable that they one time actual say verbally that they intend to eat together. <ref> Yalkut Yosef (vol 3 pg 375) </ref> | ||
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# Women who ate together are obligated to make a zimmun and even if their are ten woman they say the zimmun as if they were a group of three. <ref>Shulchan Aruch 199:6</ref> | # Women who ate together are obligated to make a zimmun and even if their are ten woman they say the zimmun as if they were a group of three. <ref>Shulchan Aruch 199:6</ref> | ||
===Children=== | ===Children=== | ||
# The Ashkenazic minhag is not to include children under Bar mitzvah for zimmun<Ref>Rama 199:10, Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 45:22 </ref>, while the Sephardic minhag is to include children of age 6 who know to whom they are [[saying Birkat HaMazon]]. Some are Machmir for age 9 in general, or, at least, for | # The Ashkenazic minhag is not to include children under Bar mitzvah for zimmun<Ref>Rama 199:10, Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 45:22 </ref>, while the Sephardic minhag is to include children of age 6 who know to whom they are [[saying Birkat HaMazon]]. Some are Machmir for age 9 in general, or, at least, for zimmun BaShem <ref> | ||
====Counting a Kattan in General==== | ====Counting a Kattan in General==== | ||
The Gemara (Berachot 47b-48a) has a series of Meymrot about being able to make a | The Gemara (Berachot 47b-48a) has a series of Meymrot about being able to make a zimmun with two people and a Sefer Torah, Shabbat, or just by virtue of the fact that they're both Talmidei Chachamim HaMechadedim Zeh et Zeh Bahalacha. Then, the Gemara quotes R' Yochanan that one can be mezamen with a Kattan Poreach, and then it brings a Baraita in support of him. Afterwards, the Gemara says the Halacha does not follow any of the above dinim rather, the Halacha follows Rav Nachman that a Kattan who knows to whom we pray may be counted towards a zimmun. The Gemara continues to bring a story about how Rabbah asked young Abaye and Rava whom we daven to and how they answered correctly. | ||
<br><br> | <br><br> | ||
There are three basic mehalchim in the Rishonim as to how to read the Gemara, resulting in the following Shitot regarding whom we count for a | There are three basic mehalchim in the Rishonim as to how to read the Gemara, resulting in the following Shitot regarding whom we count for a zimmun. | ||
#The Rif (Berachot 35a) quotes Rav Hai Gaon who holds one may count any Kattan who knows whom we daven to, even a nine year old. R' Yonah there also holds this way. | #The Rif (Berachot 35a) quotes Rav Hai Gaon who holds one may count any Kattan who knows whom we daven to, even a nine year old. R' Yonah there also holds this way. | ||
#Rabbeinu Chananel (quoted in the Rif) is of the opinion that a twelve year old, similar to a Mufla Samuch LaIsh, may be counted for a Minyan, if he knows to whom we daven. | #Rabbeinu Chananel (quoted in the Rif) is of the opinion that a twelve year old, similar to a Mufla Samuch LaIsh, may be counted for a Minyan, if he knows to whom we daven. | ||
#The Rosh (Berachot 7:20) is Machmir for a Yerushalmi that one may never count anyone below the age of thirteen for a Minyan. | #The Rosh (Berachot 7:20) is Machmir for a Yerushalmi that one may never count anyone below the age of thirteen for a Minyan. | ||
The Beit Yosef (199:10) adds that the Hagahot Maimoniot (Berachot 5:6), Samag (Aseh 27), and Maharik (Shoresh 49) also hold like the Rosh, and Rabbeinu Yonah testifies that many of his contemporary Chachamim acted that way. In the end, Maran, in Shulchan Aruch, paskens Kedarko, like the Rif and Rambam against the Rosh, and he explains that it's because | The Beit Yosef (199:10) adds that the Hagahot Maimoniot (Berachot 5:6), Samag (Aseh 27), and Maharik (Shoresh 49) also hold like the Rosh, and Rabbeinu Yonah testifies that many of his contemporary Chachamim acted that way. In the end, Maran, in Shulchan Aruch, paskens Kedarko, like the Rif and Rambam against the Rosh, and he explains that it's because zimmun is lesser than a Davar Shebekedushah, so it has room for a kullah. The Darkei Moshe 199:4 says their Minhag is like the Rosh. (See Yabia Omer (4:OC:9:2-3) and 1:OC:42:4 regarding the chiluk between using a Kattan for zimmun and not for Tefillah) | ||
====A Lower Age Limit==== | ====A Lower Age Limit==== | ||
The Beit Yosef (199:10) discusses further if the Rif has a lower limit for ketanim. One suggestion is that no, whenever he reaches the level of knowing whom we pray to, we count him, while the Rashba (Berachot 48a) and Rivash (Siman 451) both sounds like it's a din in Chinuch. According to the latter, we can only count him from as early as six years old. The assumption is that the Rif's Lashon of age 9-10 was Lav Davka, so he's in agreement with the Rambam who says 7-8. (R' Yonah's Girsa in the Rif was 7-8) LeMaaseh, in Shulchan Aruch, Maran paskens like the Rashba. | The Beit Yosef (199:10) discusses further if the Rif has a lower limit for ketanim. One suggestion is that no, whenever he reaches the level of knowing whom we pray to, we count him, while the Rashba (Berachot 48a) and Rivash (Siman 451) both sounds like it's a din in Chinuch. According to the latter, we can only count him from as early as six years old. The assumption is that the Rif's Lashon of age 9-10 was Lav Davka, so he's in agreement with the Rambam who says 7-8. (R' Yonah's Girsa in the Rif was 7-8) LeMaaseh, in Shulchan Aruch, Maran paskens like the Rashba. | ||
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The Ben Ish Chai (Shanah Rishonah Korach 11) says from age nine, but Rav Ovadia (Yabia Omer 9:OC 91:8:3) says Lo Dak (as is Mashma from his Lashon about Maran and the Minhag of Baghdad following Maran), unlike the Kaf HaChaim (199:29) who took it literally. It seems to be Bedaat Maran, so it would depend how you read the Magen Avraham, (like the Chidah or the Maamar Mordechai). Either way, the Ben Ish Chai recommends finding a Gadol if possible. | The Ben Ish Chai (Shanah Rishonah Korach 11) says from age nine, but Rav Ovadia (Yabia Omer 9:OC 91:8:3) says Lo Dak (as is Mashma from his Lashon about Maran and the Minhag of Baghdad following Maran), unlike the Kaf HaChaim (199:29) who took it literally. It seems to be Bedaat Maran, so it would depend how you read the Magen Avraham, (like the Chidah or the Maamar Mordechai). Either way, the Ben Ish Chai recommends finding a Gadol if possible. | ||
<br><br> | <br><br> | ||
The Ohr Letzion (2:13:11) distinguishes between a | The Ohr Letzion (2:13:11) distinguishes between a zimmun of three and one of ten. For the former, six years old is sufficient, but one should be machmir for a zimmun bashem for nine years. Rav David Yosef (Halacha Berurah 199:13) disagrees on behalf of his father, though there is no Hasaga in Rav Ovadia's Hearot on the volume (9:108). | ||
<br><br> | <br><br> | ||
Vezot HaBeracha (pg 132) paskens like Chacham Ben Tzion, and Rav Mordechai Eliyahu comments that he disagrees and even allows for | Vezot HaBeracha (pg 132) paskens like Chacham Ben Tzion, and Rav Mordechai Eliyahu comments that he disagrees and even allows for zimmun of ten from age six. The latter emphasizes that each Kattan Lifum Chorfeh, everybody reaches that point of understanding at a different age. The fact that Rav Mordechai Eliyahu holds from age six may be a good indication that he read the Ben Ish Chai like Rav Ovadia. | ||
<br><br> | <br><br> | ||
The Birkat Hashem (2:6:25) is also | The Birkat Hashem (2:6:25) is also lenient from age six for both 3 and 10, and in footnote 90, he gives three explanations for why we should not follow the Birkei Yosef's Chumra. Firstly, the Chidah might not have meant it LeHoraah, but rather for Yechidim, as he described in Choshen Mishpat 25:6. Next, it's just not Muchrach, and, lastly, had he seen the other Rishonim and understood the Rif, he would have been Chozer Bo. | ||
<br><br> | <br><br> | ||
See further in Yechaveh Daat 4:13 and Yitzchak Yeranen 5:11. | See further in Yechaveh Daat 4:13 and Yitzchak Yeranen 5:11. | ||
</ref> | </ref> | ||
#Those who include Ketanim may do so for both a | #Those who include Ketanim may do so for both a zimmun of three and a zimmun of ten<ref>The Tur (199:10) quotes a dispute between the Rambam (5:7), who says he can be Mitztaref for both a regular zimmun and a zimmun baShem, and R' Peretz, who holds that it's only for a zimmun of ten. The Beit Yosef adds that the latter is also the opinion of Rav Hai Gaon, Tosafot (48a DH veleit), and the Mordechai (Berachot 172) quoting Rabbeinu Tam. He explains that they holds such because we're more strict about zimmun of three than a zimmun of ten, however, the Mordechai records that the Rabbeinu Tam didn't want to rely on his opinion in practice. The Orchot Chaim (39) quotes the Raavad (Temim Deim n. 1) as also holding this way because we go out of our way to enable making a zimmun of ten to praise Hashem with His name but a zimmun of three is insufficient reason to for us to accept the minor. The Shulchan Aruch (199:10) paskens like the Rambam. | ||
</ref> but not Panim Chadashot or Sheva Berachot.<ref>The Kaf HaChaim (199:31) quotes Poskim who say that a Kattan may not, however, count towards a Minyan or Panim Chaddashot for Sheva Berachot. This is also the ruling of Rav Mordechai Eliyahu (in his comments to Vezot HaBeracha pg. 132). See also Yalkut Yosef.</ref> | </ref> but not Panim Chadashot or Sheva Berachot.<ref>The Kaf HaChaim (199:31) quotes Poskim who say that a Kattan may not, however, count towards a Minyan or Panim Chaddashot for Sheva Berachot. This is also the ruling of Rav Mordechai Eliyahu (in his comments to Vezot HaBeracha pg. 132). See also Yalkut Yosef.</ref> | ||
#The Kattan should have have bread in order to be counted for three.<ref>The Birkat Hashem (2 | #The Kattan should have have bread in order to be counted for three.<ref>The Birkat Hashem (vol. 2 ch. 6:25 fn. 90) says that to join a zimmun of three, he has to eat bread or Mezonot, not just a vegetable based on a Safek Sefeka. Although, for ten, even a vegetable is sufficient.</ref> | ||
# | # Contemporary Poskim agree that this does not extend including one Kattan regardless of the size of zimmun.<ref>Rav Yosef Karo (Beit Yosef 199:10) quotes the Kol Bo (Siman 25) that there must always be a Rov Nikar of Gedolim, so a regular zimmun can have a maximum of one Kattan and a zimmun of ten can have up to three. | ||
* The Mishnah Brurah 199:25 quotes the Magen Avraham (199:6) quoting the Shiltei HaGibborim (Berachot 35 1:5) that only one Kattan may be counted. In the Shaar HaTziun (199:14) he says the Magen Avraham and Birkei Yosef both say this bedaat Maran. Upon reading the Birkei Yosef (199:3), it's clear that the Chidah felt Maran actually holds like the Kol Bo, who allows one to use many Ketanim as long as there's a Rov Nikar of Gedolim. Rather, the Birkei Yosef was being Machmir for the Riaz, because many poskim sound that way. This really isn't a Shaylah for Ashkenazim. | |||
The Mishnah | * The Kaf HaChaim (199:30), Birkat Hashem (vol. 2 ch. 6:25), Halacha Berurah (199:13), Yalkut Yosef 199:4 (199:6 in Kitzur Shulchan Aruch), and Piskei Teshuvot (199:5) all hold say one may only use one Kattan regardless. The Birkat Hashem quotes many Sepharadi Poskim, such as the Birkei Yosef, Erech HaShulchan (199:2), Kaf HaChaim ibid, Siddur Beit Menuchah, Chessed LeAlaphim, and Yechaved Daat 4:13.</ref> | ||
#If a Sepharadi, Ashkenazi, and Kattan (Sepharadi) eat bread together, they may make a zimmun if the Sepharadi leads. If they're ten total, consisting of eight Sepharadim, and Ashkenazi, and a Kattan, they Sepharadim may make a zimmun baShem, but the Ashkenazim should answer quietly without Hashem's name in a way that no one will notice the omission.<ref>VeZot HaBeracha (pg. 132) quotes the ruling of R' Chaim Pinchas Sheinberg and Rav Mordechai Eliyahu that if a Sepharadi, Ashkenazi, and Kattan eat together, they may make a zimmun and the Sepharadi should be Mezamen. Moreover, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach holds that if they're eight Sepharadim, an Askenazi, and a Kattan, one of the Sepharadim should make a zimmun BaShem, but the Ashkenazi should answer quietly without the Shem. This is also the ruling of the Piskei Teshuvot (199:5) and it's quoted in Yalkut Yosef (Heb-Eng) there.</ref> | |||
The Kaf HaChaim (199:30), Birkat Hashem (2 | #Three Ketanim who eat together may not make their own zimmun<ref>The Perishah had a Girsa in the Tur that ketanim could make their own zimmun, but the Kaf HaChaim (199:18) points out from Maamar Mordechai (199:2) and Yafeh LeLev (199:2) that the Turim printed from the times of Maran and the Bach did not have that Girsa. Neither did the Rambam or Shulchan Aruch themselves. Rav David Yosef (Halacha Berurah 199:14) says that three ketanim who eat together should not make their own zimmun.</ref> | ||
</ref> | # Ashkenazi Ketanim should still answer to a zimmun that they hear according to how much they ate with those bentching.<ref>The Piskei Teshuvot (199:5) says that they should answer as appropriate to other people's zimmun based on [[Chinuch]] if they ate together with those making a zimmun.</ref> | ||
#If a Sepharadi, Ashkenazi, and Kattan (Sepharadi) eat bread together, they may make a | #Some say that two adult women and a female minor who eat together may make a zimmun.<ref>The Kaf HaChaim (199:21) sounds like they have to be three Gedolot. The Hebrew-English Yalkut Yosef in the footnotes quotes a Maayan Omer (pg 305) that says it's permissible.</ref> | ||
#Three Ketanim who eat together may not make their own | |||
#Ashkenazi Ketanim should still answer to a | |||
# | |||
==Zimmun after someone already Benched== | ==Zimmun after someone already Benched== | ||
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# The original establishment was that the one doing Zimmun would read the entire [[Birkat HaMazon]] out loud. Nowadays, the practice is that everyone say it silently to themselves. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 128, chapter 14) quotes that Panim Meirot that the original establishment was that one person say it aloud and everyone listen. However, S”A 183:7 writes that the practice that should be followed nowadays is that one person say it aloud and everyone to follow along Bracha by Bracha. </ref> | # The original establishment was that the one doing Zimmun would read the entire [[Birkat HaMazon]] out loud. Nowadays, the practice is that everyone say it silently to themselves. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 128, chapter 14) quotes that Panim Meirot that the original establishment was that one person say it aloud and everyone listen. However, S”A 183:7 writes that the practice that should be followed nowadays is that one person say it aloud and everyone to follow along Bracha by Bracha. </ref> | ||
# According to Ashkenazim it’s preferable to finish the Bracha before the Mezamen (one doing the Zimmun) and then when the Mezamen finishes answer [[Amen]]. According to Sephardim there’s no reason to finish before the Mezamen and if one did, nonetheless, one doesn’t answer [[Amen]]. <Ref>S”A and Rama 183:7, Vezot HaBracha (pg 128, chapter 14) </ref> See further on the [[Birkat HaMazon]] page. | # According to Ashkenazim it’s preferable to finish the Bracha before the Mezamen (one doing the Zimmun) and then when the Mezamen finishes answer [[Amen]]. According to Sephardim there’s no reason to finish before the Mezamen and if one did, nonetheless, one doesn’t answer [[Amen]]. <Ref>S”A and Rama 183:7, Vezot HaBracha (pg 128, chapter 14) </ref> See further on the [[Birkat HaMazon]] page. | ||
# If it’s difficult to listen to the entire [[Birkat HaMazon]] out loud one should at least listen to the primary part of the Bracha, which according to Sephardim is Birkat | # If it’s difficult to listen to the entire [[Birkat HaMazon]] out loud one should at least listen to the primary part of the Bracha, which according to Sephardim is Birkat Hazimmun (the words “Baruch SheAchalnu…Chayinu”) and according to Ashkenazim is through Birkat HaZan (the first Bracha of [[Birkat HaMazon]]). Therefore according to Ashkenazim the Mezamen (even if he is Sephardi) must say the first Bracha out loud and everyone should say it silently along with the Mezamen. <Ref>S”A and Rama 200:1 identify clearly the crucial part of Zimmun, according to S”A it is the Zimmun of Baruch SheAchalnu and according to the Rama it is including the first Bracha. Mishna Brurah 183:28 holds that Ashkenazim should at least say the first Bracha quietly together with the Mezamen and those who have the minhag that everyone just says it to themselves are mistaken. This is also the opinion of Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14). Vezot HaBracha (pg 335) quotes Rav Wosner in Kovetz MeBet Levi (Nissan 5758) who defends the minhag slightly. Yalkut Yosef (vol 3 pg 371) says that a Sephardi who is a Mezamen for Ashkenazim should say the first Bracha out loud. </ref> | ||
# According to Ashkenazim, if there’s a large group and those [[benching]] will not hear the Mezamen until the end of the first Bracha it’s preferable for the group to separate into groups of three so that it’s possible to hear the Mezamen until the end of the first Bracha. <Ref>Mishna Brurah 193:17, Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) also quotes the Chazon Ish who argues but still quotes the Mishna Brurah as the primary opinion. </ref> | # According to Ashkenazim, if there’s a large group and those [[benching]] will not hear the Mezamen until the end of the first Bracha it’s preferable for the group to separate into groups of three so that it’s possible to hear the Mezamen until the end of the first Bracha. <Ref>Mishna Brurah 193:17, Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) also quotes the Chazon Ish who argues but still quotes the Mishna Brurah as the primary opinion. </ref> | ||
# It’s preferable that the Mezamen not use a microphone for Zimmun but rather someone with a loud voice do the Zimmun. <Ref>Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) </ref> | # It’s preferable that the Mezamen not use a microphone for Zimmun but rather someone with a loud voice do the Zimmun. <Ref>Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) </ref> | ||
