Zimmun: Difference between revisions

The Gemara (Berachot 47b-48a) has a series of Meymrot about being able to make a zimmun with two people and a Sefer Torah, Shabbat, or just by virtue of the fact that they're both Talmidei Chachamim HaMechadedim Zeh et Zeh Bahalacha. Then, the Gemara quotes R' Yochanan that one can be mezamen with a Kattan Poreach, and then it brings a Baraita in support of him. Afterwards, the Gemara says the Halacha does not follow any of the above dinim rather, the Halacha follows Rav Nachman that a Kattan who knows to whom we pray may be counted towards a zimmun. The Gemara continues to bring a story about how Rabbah asked young Abaye and Rava whom we daven to and how they answered correctly.

There are three basic mehalchim in the Rishonim as to how to read the Gemara, resulting in the following Shitot regarding whom we count for a zimmun.

#The Rif (Berachot 35a) quotes Rav Hai Gaon who holds one may count any Kattan who knows whom we daven to, even a nine year old. R' Yonah there also holds this way.

#Rabbeinu Chananel (quoted in the Rif) is of the opinion that a twelve year old, similar to a Mufla Samuch LaIsh, may be counted for a Minyan, if he knows to whom we daven.

#The Rosh (Berachot 7:20) is Machmir for a Yerushalmi that one may never count anyone below the age of thirteen for a Minyan.

The Beit Yosef (199:10) adds that the Hagahot Maimoniot (Berachot 5:6), Samag (Aseh 27), and Maharik (Shoresh 49) also hold like the Rosh, and Rabbeinu Yonah testifies that many of his contemporary Chachamim acted that way. In the end, Maran, in Shulchan Aruch, paskens Kedarko, like the Rif and Rambam against the Rosh, and he explains that it's because zimmun is lesser than a Davar Shebekedushah, so it has room for a kullah. The Darkei Moshe 199:4 says their Minhag is like the Rosh. (See Yabia Omer (4:OC:9:2-3) and 1:OC:42:4 regarding the chiluk between using a Kattan for zimmun and not for Tefillah)

The Beit Yosef (199:10) discusses further if the Rif has a lower limit for ketanim. One suggestion is that no, whenever he reaches the level of knowing whom we pray to, we count him, while the Rashba (Berachot 48a) and Rivash (Siman 451) both sounds like it's a din in Chinuch. According to the latter, we can only count him from as early as six years old. The assumption is that the Rif's Lashon of age 9-10 was Lav Davka, so he's in agreement with the Rambam who says 7-8. (R' Yonah's Girsa in the Rif was 7-8) LeMaaseh, in Shulchan Aruch, Maran paskens like the Rashba.

The Magen Avraham, as quoted by the Mishnah Berurah (199:24), al atar says from 9-10, like the Lashon of the Rif. The Birkei Yosef (199:4 )says that the Be'er Heitev discusses whether the Magen Avraham meant to disagree with Maran or not, as the Magen Avraham himself writes 6 elsewhere. He says how the Peshat in the Rif is that he's not arguing with the Rambam, but since it's a Safek beDaat HaRif if he mean 9-10 davka, he's Machmir neged Maran. In Shiurei Beracha (199:2) he found the Sefer HaOrah of Rashi that says 9-10 davka beDaat Rav Hai. The Hearot Peat David validates the Chumra but points out that Rashi was just quoting the Rif word for word and makes some question of authorship. See Machatzit HaShekel who's quoted to say similarly.

In Yabia Omer (2:OC:13:11), regarding the how old a child must be for one to answer Amen to his Beracha, Rav Ovadia says that the Chidah strayed from the Kav and there's no need to be Machmir as there's no Beracha Levatala. Therefore, he paskens from six. Elsewhere (8OC 25:8) he adds a Rov that Chareidi kids know whom they're mevarech to and that one can use a Safek Sefeka if he's not sure if the kid is six.