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Zimmun: Difference between revisions
From Halachipedia
→A Zimmun of Ten
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==A Zimmun of Ten== | ==A Zimmun of Ten== | ||
# If ten people ate bread together, they are supposed to add the word Elokenu in the Zimmun.<ref>Shulchan Aruch 192:1</ref> | # If ten people ate bread together, they are supposed to add the word Elokenu in the Zimmun.<ref>Shulchan Aruch 192:1</ref> | ||
# If seven people ate bread and three people ate a [[kezayit]] of another food or drank a [[reviyit]] of a drink other than water, they can join together for a Zimmun with the insertion of Elokenu. If there are only six people who ate bread they can't make a Zimmun with Elokenu. <ref>Shulchan Aruch 197:2</ref> | # If seven people ate bread and three people ate a [[kezayit]] of another food or drank a [[reviyit]] of a drink<ref>The Kol Bo 25 cited by Bet Yosef has a doubt whether those joining have to eat a kezayit or reviyit of drink to join or anything is sufficient. Shulchan Aruch rules that a kezayit of food or reviyit of drink is necessary.</ref> other than water, they can join together for a Zimmun with the insertion of Elokenu. If there are only six people who ate bread they can't make a Zimmun with Elokenu. <ref>Shulchan Aruch 197:2. Rav is quoted in Gemara Brachot 48a as saying that if one of the ten ate a vegetable he can join for a zimmun. Tosfot s.v. tisha adds that even drinking counts like eating. Rambam Brachot 5:8, Tur and Shulchan Aruch 197:2 codify this gemara. | ||
# According to Sephardim, one doesn't have to stand for the word Elokenu in the Zimmun. <ref>Halacha Brurah 192:12</ref> | * Rabbi Zeira asked whether two or three people who ate a vegetable can join and Rav Yehuda told him that they could. Rabbi Zeira didn't ask whether four who ate vegetables can join because he thought that you need a significant majority. Rabbi Yirmiya argued that four could join which there is still a majority of those who had bread. Rashi understands that Rabbi Zeira didn't ask original because of his idea but really he regretted that he didn't ask about four. The Bet Yosef 197:2 explains for the Rambam and others that Rabbi Zeira was steadfast in his opinion that four can't join. Interestingly, the Or Zaruah 1:197 cited by Bet Yosef in fact holds that four can join. Shulchan Aruch doesn't hold like the Or Zaruah.</ref> | ||
# According to Sephardim, one doesn't have to stand for the word Elokenu in the Zimmun. <ref>Halacha Brurah 192:12</ref> Some Ashkenazim have the custom to stand for the word Elokenu in a zimmun of ten, however those who don't stand have what to rely on.<Ref>Sh"t Bear Moshe 1:2 compares standing for Elokenu of zimmun to standing for barchu and concludes that one should stand but if one doesn't there is what to rely upon. [https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/897474/rabbi-hershel-schachter/berachos-87-44b-45b-lishmor-chukav-zman-tefillin-muktzeh-mayim-letzmao-zimmun-/ Rav Schachter (Brachot Shiur 87 at the end)] said that Rav Soloveitchik's minhag was not to stand for Elokenu of zimmun of ten but those who do stand think that it is like a dvar shebekedusha (Kesef Mishna Brachot 5:7). | |||
* Is Zimmun a Dvar Shebekedusha? The Rambam Brachot 5:7 writes that even though women can have a zimun on their own they can’t have a zimun of ten with Elokenu. (Interestingly, the Sefer Meorot Brachot 45a argues on the Rambam.) Kesef Mishna Brachot 5:7 explains that a zimun with Elokenu is a dvar shebekedusha. Meiri Brachot 47b s.v. nashim, Bach 199:7, Perisha 199:16, Ateret Tzvi 199:5, and Mishna Brurah 199:15 agree with this statement explicitly. However, Even Haazel Brachot 5:7 and Divrei Yirmiyahu Brachot 5:7 argue that zimun with Elokenu really isn’t a dvar shebekedusha but requires a minyan for the respect of Hashem’s name (Brachot 45b) and that’s why a child can join for zimun. (See Meiri who tries to address this.) Kavod Yom Tov Brachot 5:7 provides a compromise calling it a minor dvar shebekedusha.</ref> | |||
==Two who ate together== | ==Two who ate together== | ||
