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Zimmun: Difference between revisions

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# If three people ate together in the beginning or they finished together (and it’s considered as if they finished together if they still would eat something had if be brought to them) then there’s an obligation of Zimmun. <Ref>Mishna Brurah 193:19 </ref>
# If three people ate together in the beginning or they finished together (and it’s considered as if they finished together if they still would eat something had if be brought to them) then there’s an obligation of Zimmun. <Ref>Mishna Brurah 193:19 </ref>
# Two who ate together aren't obligated in Zimmun and therefore, they should say [[Birkat HaMazon]] to themselves.<ref>The Gemara Brachot discusses whether two people can create a zimmun. Rabbi Yochanan holds that two people can't have a zimmun but Rav holds they can. The Rif 33a, Rosh Brachot 7:6, Or Zaruah Brachot n. 184, and Rambam Brachot 5:16 hold like Rabbi Yochanan. Shulchan Aruch 193:1 codifies the opinion of Rabbi Yochanan. </ref> However, if one of them doesn’t know how to say [[Birkat HaMazon]] and the other does, then the one who knows may say it aloud and fulfill the obligation of the one who doesn't know as long as the one saying has intent to fulfill the obligation of the other, and the one listening has intent to fulfill his obligation. <ref>Gemara 45b establishes that if someone doesn't know how to say birkat hamazon he can fulfill his obligation by listening to someone who does know how to say birkat hamazon. Rif 33a, Rosh 6:7, Rambam Brachot 5:15, and Shulchan Aruch 193:1 quote this as the halacha. </ref>
# Two who ate together aren't obligated in Zimmun and therefore, they should say [[Birkat HaMazon]] to themselves.<ref>The Gemara Brachot discusses whether two people can create a zimmun. Rabbi Yochanan holds that two people can't have a zimmun but Rav holds they can. The Rif 33a, Rosh Brachot 7:6, Or Zaruah Brachot n. 184, and Rambam Brachot 5:16 hold like Rabbi Yochanan. Shulchan Aruch 193:1 codifies the opinion of Rabbi Yochanan. </ref> However, if one of them doesn’t know how to say [[Birkat HaMazon]] and the other does, then the one who knows may say it aloud and fulfill the obligation of the one who doesn't know as long as the one saying has intent to fulfill the obligation of the other, and the one listening has intent to fulfill his obligation. <ref>Gemara 45b establishes that if someone doesn't know how to say birkat hamazon he can fulfill his obligation by listening to someone who does know how to say birkat hamazon. Rif 33a, Rosh 6:7, Rambam Brachot 5:15, and Shulchan Aruch 193:1 quote this as the halacha. </ref>
# According to many opinions it is crucial that the one who is listening understand the [[Birkat HaMazon]]. Some poskim are lenient and add that such was the minhag. <Ref>Tosfot Brachot 45b s.v. shani concludes that if a person doesn't understand the birkat hamazon he can't fulfill his obligation with a zimmun. Mordechai, Or Zaruah Brachot n. 186, Rabbenu Yonah Brachot 33a s.v. vnira, and Rosh Brachot 7:6 agree. However, the Rosh cites Rashi who held that even if those listening don't understand they can fulfill their obligation by listening to birkat hamazon in Hebrew as we find by Megillah 17a. Tur and Shulchan Aruch 193:1 hold like the Tosfot. Darkei Moshe 193:1 writes that the minhag is to rely on Rashi. Magen Avraham 193:2 and Mishna Brurah 193:5 accept the Darkei Moshe. </ref>
# According to many opinions it is crucial that the one who is listening understand the [[Birkat HaMazon]]. Some poskim are lenient and add that such was the minhag. <Ref>Tosfot Brachot 45b s.v. shani concludes that if a person doesn't understand the birkat hamazon he can't fulfill his obligation with a zimmun. Mordechai, Or Zaruah Brachot n. 186, Rabbenu Yonah Brachot 33a s.v. vnira, and Rosh Brachot 7:6 agree. However, the Rosh cites Rashi who held that even if those listening don't understand they can fulfill their obligation by listening to birkat hamazon in Hebrew as we find by Megillah 17a. Tur and Shulchan Aruch 193:1 hold like the Tosfot. Darkei Moshe 193:1 writes that the minhag is to rely on Rashi. Magen Avraham 193:2 and Mishna Brurah 193:5 accept the Darkei Moshe.
* The Birkat Avraham 9:287 (cited by Olot Tamid 193:2) writes that even Shulchan Aruch would accept that for a zimmun of three it is possible to fulfill the obligation of someone who doesn't understand Hebrew and it is only an issue if there's only two people. However, the Olot Tamid argues that Shulchan Aruch doesn't distinguish. (Tosfot Brachot 45b s.v. shani explicitly is against the Birkat Avraham.) Biur Halacha 193:1 s.v. eino cites the Birkat Avraham.</ref>
===Two Who Ate Bread and a Third Ate Other Foods===
===Two Who Ate Bread and a Third Ate Other Foods===
# If two people ate bread and a third person ate a [[kezayit]] of another food, some rishonim hold that they may not join together to make a zimmun, while other rishonim hold that they may join together for a zimmun. Ideally the third person should eat bread and join for a zimmun. If he doesn't want to, they can join for a zimmun of three. <Ref>
# If two people ate bread and a third person ate a [[kezayit]] of another food, some rishonim hold that they may not join together to make a zimmun, while other rishonim hold that they may join together for a zimmun. Ideally the third person should eat bread and join for a zimmun. If he doesn't want to, they can join for a zimmun of three. <Ref>
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