Anonymous

Zimmun: Difference between revisions

From Halachipedia
134 bytes added ,  30 April 2018
Line 22: Line 22:


==If a Member of the Zimmun Left or Benched==
==If a Member of the Zimmun Left or Benched==
===If a Member of the Zimmun already Said Birkat Hamazon===
# If three ate together and were obligated in Zimmun and one forgot about Zimmun and said [[Birkat HaMazon]] then the other two can say zimmun with the third. <Ref>Rava Tosfa in Gemara Brachot 50a states that if three people ate together and one said birkat hamazon then the other two can afterwards include him in the zimmun, even though he doesn't fulfill his obligation, they fulfill their obligation. Rambam Brachot 5:14, Rosh Brachot 7:28, and Shulchan Aruch 194:1 codify this as the halacha.</ref> However, if one of the group already answered Zimmun with another group he can’t answer another zimmun of three. <Ref>Rav Hai Goan (cited by Rashba 50a s.v iy nami) understood Rava on 50a to mean that if there were three groups of three people who ate bread together and one from each group joined together for a zimmun the others would be exempted from a zimmun. The reason is that since the original groups only had three people once one of them answered a zimmun he is discounted from their group and as such they can't make a zimmun anymore. The Rashba explains that according to Rav Hai Gaon only if the other person answered a zimmun is he disqualified from joining their group, but if he forgot and say birkat hamazon without a zimun he wouldn't invalidate his group's zimmun and he can join their zimmun although he isn't going to fulfill his obligation. Rama 194:1 holds like Rav Hai Goan. Bet Yosef 193:6 cites it.
# If three ate together and were obligated in Zimmun and one forgot about Zimmun and said [[Birkat HaMazon]] then the other two can say zimmun with the third. <Ref>Rava Tosfa in Gemara Brachot 50a states that if three people ate together and one said birkat hamazon then the other two can afterwards include him in the zimmun, even though he doesn't fulfill his obligation, they fulfill their obligation. Rambam Brachot 5:14, Rosh Brachot 7:28, and Shulchan Aruch 194:1 codify this as the halacha.</ref> However, if one of the group already answered Zimmun with another group he can’t answer another zimmun of three. <Ref>Rav Hai Goan (cited by Rashba 50a s.v iy nami) understood Rava on 50a to mean that if there were three groups of three people who ate bread together and one from each group joined together for a zimmun the others would be exempted from a zimmun. The reason is that since the original groups only had three people once one of them answered a zimmun he is discounted from their group and as such they can't make a zimmun anymore. The Rashba explains that according to Rav Hai Gaon only if the other person answered a zimmun is he disqualified from joining their group, but if he forgot and say birkat hamazon without a zimun he wouldn't invalidate his group's zimmun and he can join their zimmun although he isn't going to fulfill his obligation. Rama 194:1 holds like Rav Hai Goan. Bet Yosef 193:6 cites it.
* Furthermore, the opinion of Rashi 50b s.v. vlo, Tosfot 50a s.v. aval, and Rambam Brachot 5:11 explain the gemara Brachot 50a to mean that if a person answered a zimmun and then joined another group he can't answer another zimmun. </ref>
* Furthermore, the opinion of Rashi 50b s.v. vlo, Tosfot 50a s.v. aval, and Rambam Brachot 5:11 explain the gemara Brachot 50a to mean that if a person answered a zimmun and then joined another group he can't answer another zimmun. </ref>
===When is it Permitted to Leave?===
# If three people ate in three different groups of three they shouldn't leave their groups and form their own zimmun because doing so will invalidate their original groups.<ref>Rav Hai Goan's understanding of Brachot 50a, Rashba 50a s.v. iy nami, Rama 193:6</ref>
# If three people ate in three different groups of three they shouldn't leave their groups and form their own zimmun because doing so will invalidate their original groups.<ref>Rav Hai Goan's understanding of Brachot 50a, Rashba 50a s.v. iy nami, Rama 193:6</ref>
# If three people ate in three groups of four or more people they can leave their groups and form their own zimmun because their original groups will still have their own zimmun.<ref>Rashba Brachot 50a s.v. iy nami, Rama 193:6</ref>
# If three people ate in three groups of four or more people they can leave their groups and form their own zimmun because their original groups will still have their own zimmun.<ref>Rashba Brachot 50a s.v. iy nami, Rama 193:6</ref>
===If a Member of the Zimmun Left===
# If someone in a group of four and one left and they did zimmun while he wasn't there he is exempt from zimmun and he can't later join a zimmun. The same is true if he was part of a group of three and he left and someone else replaced him and they did a zimmun without him, he lost his obligation of zimmun.<ref>Rosh Brachot 7:29 quotes Rabbenu Yehuda who explains that the gemara meant that if the original groups did zimmun the ones who left lost their obligation of zimmun. Even though the Rosh argues with Rabbenu Yehuda, Rabbenu Yonah 36a s.v gemara and Raavad Brachot 5:11 agree with Rabbenu Yehuda. Rashba 50a s.v. iy nami implies that he agrees. Shulchan Aruch OC 193:6 codifies the opinion of Rabbenu Yehuda.</ref>
# If someone in a group of four and one left and they did zimmun while he wasn't there he is exempt from zimmun and he can't later join a zimmun. The same is true if he was part of a group of three and he left and someone else replaced him and they did a zimmun without him, he lost his obligation of zimmun.<ref>Rosh Brachot 7:29 quotes Rabbenu Yehuda who explains that the gemara meant that if the original groups did zimmun the ones who left lost their obligation of zimmun. Even though the Rosh argues with Rabbenu Yehuda, Rabbenu Yonah 36a s.v gemara and Raavad Brachot 5:11 agree with Rabbenu Yehuda. Rashba 50a s.v. iy nami implies that he agrees. Shulchan Aruch OC 193:6 codifies the opinion of Rabbenu Yehuda.</ref>
# If three ate together and one person left he could be called back and Zimmun could be said even if he’s standing by the door next to them, however he should say [[Birkat HaMazon]] where he ate. However, if ten people ate together and one left he should be called back and everyone should sit down for Zimmun. <Ref>Gemara Brachot 45b, Shulchan Aruch OC 194:2, Mishna Brurah 194:8 </ref>
# If three ate together and one person left he could be called back and Zimmun could be said even if he’s standing by the door next to them, however he should say [[Birkat HaMazon]] where he ate. However, if ten people ate together and one left he should be called back and everyone should sit down for Zimmun. <Ref>Gemara Brachot 45b, Shulchan Aruch OC 194:2, Mishna Brurah 194:8 </ref>
112

edits