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Zimmun: Difference between revisions

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# If three ate together and were obligated in Zimmun and one forgot about Zimmun and said [[Birkat HaMazon]] then the other two can say zimmun with the third. <Ref>Rava Tosfa in Gemara Brachot 50a states that if three people ate together and one said birkat hamazon then the other two can afterwards include him in the zimmun, even though he doesn't fulfill his obligation, they fulfill their obligation. Rambam Brachot 5:14, Rosh Brachot 7:28, and Shulchan Aruch 194:1 codify this as the halacha.</ref> However, if one of the group already answered Zimmun with another group he can’t answer another zimmun of three. <Ref>Rav Hai Goan (cited by Rashba 50a s.v iy nami) understood Rava on 50a to mean that if there were three groups of three people who ate bread together and one from each group joined together for a zimmun the others would be exempted from a zimmun. The reason is that since the original groups only had three people once one of them answered a zimmun he is discounted from their group and as such they can't make a zimmun anymore. The Rashba explains that according to Rav Hai Gaon only if the other person answered a zimmun is he disqualified from joining their group, but if he forgot and say birkat hamazon without a zimun he wouldn't invalidate his group's zimmun and he can join their zimmun although he isn't going to fulfill his obligation. Rama 194:1 holds like Rav Hai Goan. Bet Yosef 193:6 cites it.
# If three ate together and were obligated in Zimmun and one forgot about Zimmun and said [[Birkat HaMazon]] then the other two can say zimmun with the third. <Ref>Rava Tosfa in Gemara Brachot 50a states that if three people ate together and one said birkat hamazon then the other two can afterwards include him in the zimmun, even though he doesn't fulfill his obligation, they fulfill their obligation. Rambam Brachot 5:14, Rosh Brachot 7:28, and Shulchan Aruch 194:1 codify this as the halacha.</ref> However, if one of the group already answered Zimmun with another group he can’t answer another zimmun of three. <Ref>Rav Hai Goan (cited by Rashba 50a s.v iy nami) understood Rava on 50a to mean that if there were three groups of three people who ate bread together and one from each group joined together for a zimmun the others would be exempted from a zimmun. The reason is that since the original groups only had three people once one of them answered a zimmun he is discounted from their group and as such they can't make a zimmun anymore. The Rashba explains that according to Rav Hai Gaon only if the other person answered a zimmun is he disqualified from joining their group, but if he forgot and say birkat hamazon without a zimun he wouldn't invalidate his group's zimmun and he can join their zimmun although he isn't going to fulfill his obligation. Rama 194:1 holds like Rav Hai Goan. Bet Yosef 193:6 cites it.
* Furthermore, the opinion of Rashi 50b s.v. vlo, Tosfot 50a s.v. aval, and Rambam Brachot 5:11 explain the gemara Brachot 50a to mean that if a person answered a zimmun and then joined another group he can't answer another zimmun. </ref>
* Furthermore, the opinion of Rashi 50b s.v. vlo, Tosfot 50a s.v. aval, and Rambam Brachot 5:11 explain the gemara Brachot 50a to mean that if a person answered a zimmun and then joined another group he can't answer another zimmun. </ref>
# If three people ate bread together, and two forgot to wait for Zimmun, the other one can not do Zimmun with the ones who already Benched. <ref> The Rosh Brachot 7:28 writes that if two of them already said birkat hamazon there's no more obligation of zimmun for any of them. He infers it from the gemara that says only if one already said Birkat Hamazon implying if it was more then there would be no obligation of zimmun anymore. Rashba Brachot 50a s.v. inhu and Hagahot Maimoniyot 5:30 agree. Maamer Mordechai 194:3 and Keysad Mezamnin 194:5 codify this.</ref>
# If three people ate bread together, and two forgot to wait for Zimmun, the other one can not do Zimmun with the ones who already Benched. <ref> The Rosh Brachot 7:28 writes that if two of them already said birkat hamazon there's no more obligation of zimmun for any of them. He infers it from the gemara that says only if one already said Birkat Hamazon implying if it was more then there would be no obligation of zimmun anymore. Rashba Brachot 50a s.v. inhu and Hagahot Maimoniyot 5:30 agree. Maamer Mordechai 194:3 and Keysad Mezamnin 194:5 p. 112 codify this.</ref>
# If four ate bread and two forgot and said birkat hamazon the other two can create a zimmun with one of the ones who already said birkat hamazon.<ref>Maamer Mordechai 194:3 explains that although the Rashba explains that one can only create a zimmun if a majority of the original group is there, since two need to say birkat hamazon they would have a zimmun even if only one of those who already said birkat hamazon would join them. Biur Halacha 194:1 s.v. echad agrees.</ref>
# If four ate bread and two forgot and said birkat hamazon the other two can create a zimmun with one of the ones who already said birkat hamazon.<ref>Maamer Mordechai 194:3 explains that although the Rashba explains that one can only create a zimmun if a majority of the original group is there, since two need to say birkat hamazon they would have a zimmun even if only one of those who already said birkat hamazon would join them. Biur Halacha 194:1 s.v. echad agrees.</ref>
# If three people ate together, two ate bread and one ate a [[Kezayit]] of something else or drank a [[Revi'it]] of a drink (other than water) are obligated to make Zimmun. <ref> Mishna Brurah 197:20 writes that if one out of three people ate a [[Kezayit]] of a food (other than bread) or drank a reviyat of drinks (other than water), the three people can still make Zimmun. </ref>
# If three people ate together, two ate bread and one ate a [[Kezayit]] of something else or drank a [[Revi'it]] of a drink (other than water) are obligated to make Zimmun. <ref> Mishna Brurah 197:20 writes that if one out of three people ate a [[Kezayit]] of a food (other than bread) or drank a reviyat of drinks (other than water), the three people can still make Zimmun. </ref>
# If one of three only had a [[Kezayit]] of another food or a reviyat of drinks, and one of those who ate bread forgot to wait for Zimmun and Benched, the other one who ate bread can no longer make Zimmun. <Ref> Eliya Rabba has a doubt about the case where two ate bread with someone who ate a kezayit of another food and one who ate bread said birkat hamazon if they can still have a zimmun. Perhaps since majority of the group still didn't say a bracha achrona they can have a zimmun or perhaps since only the one who had bread and still didn't say birkat hamazon needs a zimmun the obligation of the zimmun disappeared. He concludes that the latter approach is more reasonable. Birkei Yosef (Shiurei Bracha 194:1), Maamar Mordechai 194:3, Magen Giborim (Elef Hamagen 194:1), and Biur Halacha 194:1 s.v. echad agree. Maamer Mordechai elaborates that according to the Rosh the one who already said birkat hamazon is like someone who ate a kezayit of another food so if the other two ate bread that would create a zimmun. But according to the Rambam that someone who ate a kezayit of another food can't join for a zimmun of three the one who already said birkat hamazon is better than someone who ate a kezayit but either way in this case there's no zimmun.</ref>
# If one of three only had a [[Kezayit]] of another food or a reviyat of drinks, and one of those who ate bread forgot to wait for Zimmun and Benched, the other one who ate bread can no longer make Zimmun. <Ref> Eliya Rabba has a doubt about the case where two ate bread with someone who ate a kezayit of another food and one who ate bread said birkat hamazon if they can still have a zimmun. Perhaps since majority of the group still didn't say a bracha achrona they can have a zimmun or perhaps since only the one who had bread and still didn't say birkat hamazon needs a zimmun the obligation of the zimmun disappeared. He concludes that the latter approach is more reasonable. Birkei Yosef (Shiurei Bracha 194:1), Maamar Mordechai 194:3, Magen Giborim (Elef Hamagen 194:1), and Biur Halacha 194:1 s.v. echad agree. Maamer Mordechai elaborates that according to the Rosh the one who already said birkat hamazon is like someone who ate a kezayit of another food so if the other two ate bread that would create a zimmun. But according to the Rambam that someone who ate a kezayit of another food can't join for a zimmun of three the one who already said birkat hamazon is better than someone who ate a kezayit but either way in this case there's no zimmun.</ref>
# If one of three only had a [[Kezayit]] of another food or a reviyat of drinks, and the one who didn’t eat bread forgot to wait for Zimmun and made [[Bracha Achrona]], the other two  who ate bread can no longer make Zimmun. <Ref> Magen Avraham 197:4 quotes the Aguda who writes that if one who didn't eat bread forgot and made a bracha achrona he is no longer included in the zimmun at all and it is unlike someone who ate bread and then forgot and recited birkat hamazon. Maamar Mordechai 194:3 and Mishna Brurah 197:9 agree.</ref>
# If one of three only had a [[Kezayit]] of another food or a reviyat of drinks, and the one who didn’t eat bread forgot to wait for Zimmun and made [[Bracha Achrona]], the other two  who ate bread can no longer make Zimmun. <Ref> Magen Avraham 197:4 quotes the Aguda who writes that if one who didn't eat bread forgot and made a bracha achrona he is no longer included in the zimmun at all and it is unlike someone who ate bread and then forgot and recited birkat hamazon. Maamar Mordechai 194:3 and Mishna Brurah 197:9 agree.</ref>
# If there's a zimmun of ten and one already said birkat hamazon, according to Ashkenazim they can still recite a zimmun with Shem even though the one who already said birkat hamazon doesn't fulfill his obligation everyone else does. In fact this works even if three already said birkat hamazon. According to Sephardim they can not make a zimmun with a shem.<ref>Bet Yosef 193:1 s.v. vchen holds that someone who already said zimmun can join a zimmun of three but not a zimmun of ten. Birkei Yosef 194:1 agrees. Keysad Mezamnin p. 118 explains that a zimmun of ten requires a greater level of establishment to create a zimmun than a zimmun of three (Brachot 45b) and therefore someone who already said birkat hamazon can't join.  However, the Eliya Rabba 194:1 argues. Biur Halacha 194:1 s.v. echad agrees.</ref>


===When is it Permitted to Leave?===
===When is it Permitted to Leave?===
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