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Zimmun: Difference between revisions
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→Zimmun When They Didn't Establish Together
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== Who has the obligation?== | == Who has the obligation?== | ||
# There is only an obligation to have a zimmun if three or more people eat together. The three conditions to be considered “together” is that those who are eating 1) eat while seated, 2) sit at one table, and 3) start or end the meal together. <ref> Shulchan Aruch 193:2 writes that a third person can join two that already started eating if he is “Koveh” (establishes his place) with them. Mishna Brurah 193:21 writes that if one doesn’t eat while sitting and eat at the same table one isn’t considered as being Koveh with the others. Magen Avraham 195:2 and Mishna Brurah 197:3 also include the requirement of sitting at the same table. </ref> They are considered starting together if they all start to eat the first kezayit of bread while the others are still eating that first kezayit.<ref>Tosfot Brachot 45a s.v. shelosha, Vezot Habracha p. 131 citing Rav Elyashiv and Rav Tzvi Weber. He also quotes Rav Sheinberg who said that if they went to wash at the same time it is like they started together.</ref> | # There is only an obligation to have a zimmun if three or more people eat together. The three conditions to be considered “together” is that those who are eating 1) eat while seated, 2) sit at one table, and 3) start or end the meal together. <ref> Shulchan Aruch 193:2 writes that a third person can join two that already started eating if he is “Koveh” (establishes his place) with them. Mishna Brurah 193:21 writes that if one doesn’t eat while sitting and eat at the same table one isn’t considered as being Koveh with the others. Magen Avraham 195:2 and Mishna Brurah 197:3 also include the requirement of sitting at the same table. </ref> They are considered starting together if they all start to eat the first kezayit of bread while the others are still eating that first kezayit.<ref>Tosfot Brachot 45a s.v. shelosha, Vezot Habracha p. 131 citing Rav Elyashiv and Rav Tzvi Weber. He also quotes Rav Sheinberg who said that if they went to wash at the same time it is like they started together.</ref> | ||
##A person eating with his family is considered one eating together to be obligated in zimmun even if they aren't eating at the same table.<ref>Mishna Brurah 193:18</ref> | |||
##People eating together at a simcha or any other occasion are considered eating together even if they aren't eating at the same table.<ref>Piskei Teshuvot 193:7</ref> | |||
## If in a school or yeshiva, the students go to lunch at the same time, the group can make Zimmun together even if they sit at separate tables as long as they can see from one table to another. Even if they don’t have enough at each table to make their own Zimmun of ten, they can join together to make a Zimmun of ten. However, it’s preferable that they one time actual say verbally that they intend to eat together. <ref> Yalkut Yosef (vol 3 pg 375), Piskei Teshuvot 193:7 </ref> | |||
===Zimmun When They Didn't Establish Together=== | ===Zimmun When They Didn't Establish Together=== | ||
# If two groups ate in different places in the same house and they could see from one group to another, if they have intent (when they began the meal) to join for Zimmun they may join, however, if if they didn’t have intent, then according to Sephardim they may not join for Zimmun, but according to Ashkenazim it’s a dispute whether they may join for zimmun. <Ref>Shulchan Aruch OC 195:1, Mishna Brurah 195:6 </ref> | # If two groups ate in different places in the same house and they could see from one group to another, if they have intent (when they began the meal) to join for Zimmun they may join, however, if if they didn’t have intent, then according to Sephardim they may not join for Zimmun, but according to Ashkenazim it’s a dispute whether they may join for zimmun. <Ref>Shulchan Aruch OC 195:1, Mishna Brurah 195:6 </ref> | ||
# If three people aren’t obligated to make Zimmun as they didn’t join their meals together sitting, on the same table, and starting or finishing together they may not have a zimmun.<ref> Rama 193:3 writes that even if three people aren’t obligated in Zimmun it’s preferable that they make Zimmun because of Berov Am Hadrat Melech, that it’s preferable to honor Hashem in multitudes. Mishna Brurah 193:23 writes that the same would apply if there are more than 3 people. However, Magen Avraham in name of many poskim that since one can’t fulfill the [[Birkat HaMazon]] for another person one is also not allowed to make a zimmun together. Mishna Brurah 193:24 concludes that the Magen Avraham is more logical. Vezot Habracha p. 134 concurs.</ref> Some say that if they sat together but they just started and ended at different times they that they can have a zimmun together.<ref>Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Minchat Shlomo Brachot 45a cited by Dirshu 193:22)</ref> | # If three people aren’t obligated to make Zimmun as they didn’t join their meals together sitting, on the same table, and starting or finishing together they may not have a zimmun.<ref> Rama 193:3 writes that even if three people aren’t obligated in Zimmun it’s preferable that they make Zimmun because of Berov Am Hadrat Melech, that it’s preferable to honor Hashem in multitudes. Mishna Brurah 193:23 writes that the same would apply if there are more than 3 people. However, Magen Avraham in name of many poskim that since one can’t fulfill the [[Birkat HaMazon]] for another person one is also not allowed to make a zimmun together. Mishna Brurah 193:24 concludes that the Magen Avraham is more logical. Vezot Habracha p. 134 concurs.</ref> Some say that if they sat together but they just started and ended at different times they that they can have a zimmun together.<ref>Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Minchat Shlomo Brachot 45a cited by Dirshu 193:22)</ref> | ||
